SUCCESS at Last - Carbon in throat removal

[dstoenner]

Once you get that barrel cleaned out down to the steel shoot you some Tubb TMS bullets down it to iron down the fire cracking.

Fire cracking is like teeth on a file. The TMS bullets smooth down the teeth. You cannot eliminate the cracks but you can smooth them down a lot. So, the jackets of the bullets stop tearing.

I agree about tms bullets Tubb knows what he is doing

 

[Martin52]

So now Have a regimen to keep things clean after every outing. I clean the bare with Montana extreme or BoreTech Eliminator and then do a free All soak for 12 hours and bronze brush with JB Bore Paste.

Keith Glasscock's 'Winning in the Wind' youtube video on cleaning mentions Free All contains methyl isobutyl ketone (MIBK), a solvent for nitro cellulose, a powder ingredient. Results are shown in his borescope pics within the video (there are 2 videos).

I have recently been using Permatex sprayed on a bronze brush, it does not contain MIBK but after 2 sessions each with 50 one way passes and a 24 hour soak in between I have got similar results with most of the carbon out of a 2000 + round FTR barrel that other solvents have left behind.

Permatex is mainly naptha, propane and butane in the aerosol version.

Great site btw @Keith Glasscock !

 

[Coonman300]

Great thread...thanks for all the info. After reading this I got the Free All and went to work on a badly neglected 22-250. I’m embarrassed to say how neglected but many of my rifles were bought when I was in my 20’s (over 30 years ago) and the only cleaning we did was wipe down the outside if it got rained on. Hundreds of rounds shot with out any cleaning. Amazingly the gun has always been pretty accurate...by hunting standards. Anyhow, I got the free all and soaked it over night and scrubbed with a bronze brush (new brush) Did this soak for several nights and scrubbed a lot. The barrel looks brand new now with the exception of a slight carbon ring that I will work on some more. I will confess that by “looks brand new” I mean a clean shiny barrel. Now that it is clean my borescope shows a BUNCH of pitting and “bore worms”....looks like termite damage in wood. Again, the result of years of neglect and a lot of rounds fired. The borescope pics would make you run away from buying this gun. I am going to shoot it this afternoon and see how well it does “clean.” I hope this will be a perfect example of “borescope paranoia “ vs “how’s it shoot?” However, without that scope I’d have never known how dirty that barrel really was. I’ll update later today or tomorrow with results.

PS.... I would love to find some Free All that’s not in an aerosol can...it makes a mess putting on patches but in my opinion it worked better than the Kroil...again, thanks for all the info.

 

[Longrange57]

Many great points toward carbon removal. Urbanrifleman does pretty much what I do and I have shot many years and cleaned many barrels and knock on wood have not fought a big carbon ring problem using multiple cartridges. I have always used bronze brushes with no problem and barrels last just as long as those I'm in competition with who do not use them. Take note that basically all penetrating products, carbon removers, fuel injection cleaners, carb cleaners, etc. are similar in that they often contain various amounts of ACETONE which is known to be one of the best carbon removers. Ammonia is the best copper remover. These products are used in small quantities in many different barrel cleaners all over the world. I have literally mixed various cleaners at different ratios for removing both carbon and copper. Treat it the same as you would any solvent and place something over the stock for protection.
I clean every 40-50 rounds under normal circumstances. I often, after 200 rounds will patch 5-6 times with acetone (100%) and let soak for 30 min to and hr. Run through with a couple of patches of brake clean, a couple of patches of your favorite barrel cleaner containing oil. I then patch a few times with 10% ammonia and never let it sit longer than 10-15 min. Again a couple of patches of brake clean. Make final patches with an oil base material and patch clean leaving a slight oil residue before shooting again. Both acetone and ammonia can be bought at most hardware stores. Many won't give away their little secrets, however, I can assure, many top shooters do something similar. Its not a big magic secret and carbon can be tough if you don't clean often enough. Acetone and Ammonia can be your friend! I've been awarded 3 different patents utilizing these materials! Happy Shooting!

 

[Longrange57]

I might add that as someone posted, you are basically breaking up the carbon into very fine particles and removing it. Do not use any acid (acetic, hcl, formic, sulfuric) compounds on your barrel. Foaming is one thing, but if you see small bubbles by just soaking something....you may be using a product containing an acid compound and it is effervescing and eating metal. Not good

 

[Mauser06]

Do you guys feel it's "safer" or "better" to use these various chemicals and countless brush strokes and still not remove all the hard carbon opposed to a couple patches of Iosso?


I've tried everything in this post and then some on a throat clogged with layers of hard carbon and copper. Even overnight soaks with the barrel full of a couple things. Certain things helped. Iosso actually removed it. And I'm not kidding when I say a couple patches.


After getting a bore scope, I've yet to see ANYTHING except Iosso actually effective on hard carbon.


Powder fouling and soft carbon on muzzle breaks is easily removed by most carbon cleaners or household cleaners. Hard carbon, I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Coonman300]

Update from prior post-

Well, I’m pretty damn tickled right now. Shot 3 foulers...about a 3 inch group... then shot 3 groups of 4 rounds. First shot of 1st group was off and the other 3 came in closer. Next group was about 1 inch. Last group was really good for me but I had pressure signs and could not shoot the final group. This is an old Ruger M77 tang safety with a heavy barrel. I’m shooting off sand bags at 100 yards. My prior groups had spread out to about 1.5 inches. I’m really glad to have learned more about cleaning a barrel. Keep in mind...the amount of pitting, inclusions, and tooling marks in this barrel are awful....don’t judge a book by its cover.

Thanks to all!

 

[Longrange57]

I say, if you have a system that works for your shooting conditions, powder being used, round count before cleaning, etc....stick to it! I never use abrasives because I don't have to.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Do you guys feel it's "safer" or "better" to use these various chemicals and countless brush strokes and still not remove all the hard carbon opposed to a couple patches of Iosso?


I've tried everything in this post and then some on a throat clogged with layers of hard carbon and copper. Even overnight soaks with the barrel full of a couple things. Certain things helped. Iosso actually removed it. And I'm not kidding when I say a couple patches.


After getting a bore scope, I've yet to see ANYTHING except Iosso actually effective on hard carbon.


Powder fouling and soft carbon on muzzle breaks is easily removed by most carbon cleaners or household cleaners. Hard carbon, I'm just not seeing it.

I feel that Free All is for fouling. It is the first thing I do, brush with Free All. This gets the bore wet and the brush gets most of the "crap" out of the barrel.

And full disclosure I am not sure which is better, an old brush and Flitz, or simple patches and Flitz. Maybe both work. It is possible that the simple patch and abrasive might be the best method for abrasive... but you cannot skip this step.

Then finish with Bore Tech Eliminator which gets the last of everything.

Here is a barrel I rechambered last night. It was my 243 pdog rifle that I have shot VERY HARD. I have to clean it down to the steel before I chambered it for 6xc. It took some elbow grease. I think the only thing left was the moly in the fire cracking, and that was only on the top of the lands and just a tiny bit. I franly, got tired of stroking the thing, and said "good enough".

PS: Take the Free All and spray it into a squeeze bottle , That is what I do. I am thinking I might mix it with Bore Tech Eliminator. I have already mixed it with Butch's Bore Shine... that works good.

 

[HTSmith]

I have been following this thread with much interest and have some questions about bore brushes:
1. Do you use only bronze or do you sometimes use the nylon or synthetic?\
2. What brand of brushes works best?
3. How many strokes, cleanings, etc before you retire a brush.

Thanks much.

 

[jelenko]

Do you guys feel it's "safer" or "better" to use these various chemicals and countless brush strokes and still not remove all the hard carbon opposed to a couple patches of Iosso?


I've tried everything in this post and then some on a throat clogged with layers of hard carbon and copper. Even overnight soaks with the barrel full of a couple things. Certain things helped. Iosso actually removed it. And I'm not kidding when I say a couple patches.


After getting a bore scope, I've yet to see ANYTHING except Iosso actually effective on hard carbon.


Powder fouling and soft carbon on muzzle breaks is easily removed by most carbon cleaners or household cleaners. Hard carbon, I'm just not seeing it.

I'm having the same experience since using a borescope to check. Admittedly, I haven't tried brushing 60 strokes at one time but, I do run a bronze brush through 20 times after a range session [50 - 130 rounds].
When using Iosso/JB/Flitz, I've found that the only way to get into the corners of the grooves is to wrap a patch around a bronze brush. Wrapping a patch around a Parker Hale jag doesn't get into those corners.

 

[dstoenner]

Many great points toward carbon removal. Urbanrifleman does pretty much what I do and I have shot many years and cleaned many barrels and knock on wood have not fought a big carbon ring problem using multiple cartridges. I have always used bronze brushes with no problem and barrels last just as long as those I'm in competition with who do not use them. Take note that basically all penetrating products, carbon removers, fuel injection cleaners, carb cleaners, etc. are similar in that they often contain various amounts of ACETONE which is known to be one of the best carbon removers. Ammonia is the best copper remover. These products are used in small quantities in many different barrel cleaners all over the world. I have literally mixed various cleaners at different ratios for removing both carbon and copper. Treat it the same as you would any solvent and place something over the stock for protection.
I clean every 40-50 rounds under normal circumstances. I often, after 200 rounds will patch 5-6 times with acetone (100%) and let soak for 30 min to and hr. Run through with a couple of patches of brake clean, a couple of patches of your favorite barrel cleaner containing oil. I then patch a few times with 10% ammonia and never let it sit longer than 10-15 min. Again a couple of patches of brake clean. Make final patches with an oil base material and patch clean leaving a slight oil residue before shooting again. Both acetone and ammonia can be bought at most hardware stores. Many won't give away their little secrets, however, I can assure, many top shooters do something similar. Its not a big magic secret and carbon can be tough if you don't clean often enough. Acetone and Ammonia can be your friend! I've been awarded 3 different patents utilizing these materials! Happy Shooting!

I’ll try your acetone suggestion. Its cheap and no scrubbing might make it a winner

David

 

[Longrange57]

I have been following this thread with much interest and have some questions about bore brushes:
1. Do you use only bronze or do you sometimes use the nylon or synthetic?\
2. What brand of brushes works best?
3. How many strokes, cleanings, etc before you retire a brush.

Thanks much.

Just my 2 cents..........I use only bronze.....for me a nylon brush is literally useless!

 

[Martin52]

I have been following this thread with much interest and have some questions about bore brushes:
1. Do you use only bronze or do you sometimes use the nylon or synthetic?\
2. What brand of brushes works best?
3. How many strokes, cleanings, etc before you retire a brush.

Thanks much.

With my current regime, one way passes with a bronze brush soaked in Permatex.
Then I use a blue Iosso brush, also soaked in Permatex, to scrub the bore fore and aft.
I use Dewey and Pro Shot bronze brushes, both seem fine.
I set aside each bronze brush after a thorough cleaning session to then just use with a patch for another cleaning session then its into the trash can.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just my 2 cents..........I use only bronze.....for me a nylon brush is literally useless!

The method that I use for cleaning out hard carbon involves the use of a black nylon brush, filled completely with IOSSO short stroked in the throat and back third of a barrel. Based on bore scope inspection, this works very well. For all other cleaning, I use bronze. BTW I did not invent my IOSSO method but rather read about it in an interview of Tony Boyer, published years back in Precision Shooting magazine. A friend has used this method every hundred rounds on several PPC barrels and those barrels suffered no loss of accuracy life. Any time I use IOSSO I take great pains to get it all out of the bore, the chamber, locking lug recesses, my bore guide, and off of my rod. I start with a light gun oil.

 

[jelenko]

Yeah, I'm going to try the acetone also.

The method that I use for cleaning out hard carbon involves the use of a black nylon brush, filled completely with IOSSO short stroked in the throat and back third of a barrel. Based on bore scope inspection, this works very well. For all other cleaning, I use bronze. BTW I did not invent my IOSSO method but rather read about it in an interview of Tony Boyer, published years back in Precision Shooting magazine. A friend has used this method every hundred rounds on several PPC barrels and those barrels suffered no loss of accuracy life. Any time I use IOSSO I take great pains to get it all out of the bore, the chamber, locking lug recesses, my bore guide, and off of my rod. I start with a light gun oil.

Are you using new nylon brushes? For the life of me, I cannot get a new nylon brush to reverse direction.

 

[BoydAllen]

Yes, I use the ones that Dewey sells, not the ones that are sold as stiffer. For this use I want to be able to reverse them and only want gentle pressure on the bore.

 

[jelenko]

Yes, I use the ones that Dewey sells, not the ones that are sold as stiffer. For this use I want to be able to reverse them and only want gentle pressure on the bore.

Ah, this answers my question in the other thread.

Thanks!

 

[jaygorski]

This is a more general question because I have this in all of my barrels. The throats seem to all have a sheen of carbon in their throats. I normally use Montana Extreme bore solvent which is supposed to get copper and carbon out of the barrel. Copper yes, carbon nope. I also have used JB Bore Paste and Bore Brite. Neither seem to touch it.

So I tried Bore tech carbon remover. Nope. I did a search on here about carbon removal and every body talked about KG-1 so I got some of it. I tried following the directions, nope still there. The first patch did have a graying to it but the rest of the tries all were white. Nope. I tried soaking it over night, no help.

Here are some pictures of my 6x47L barrel at 650 rounds. I don't hot rod my loads since F-Class being known distance don't have to go as fast as you can get, just accurate.

First picture is from the mouth through to the leade.


View attachment 1260048

The next is a few inches further down the barrel

View attachment 1260049

This is the hazard of getting a bore scope, but I digress.

So I am coming to all of you. Am I paranoid about the carbon and just ignore it. I am sure that all of my previous barrel were as bad or worse than this. It is even worse in my 22 RF barrels. Or is there something that I can use to get it out. Kroil doesn't seem to get under it. Further down the barrel from about 5 inches to the muzzle there is just shinny stainless.

I am baffled. Thanks in advance

David

You don't have any CLR?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Keith Glasscock's 'Winning in the Wind' youtube video on cleaning mentions Free All contains methyl isobutyl ketone (MIBK), a solvent for nitro cellulose, a powder ingredient. Results are shown in his borescope pics within the video (there are 2 videos).

I have recently been using Permatex sprayed on a bronze brush, it does not contain MIBK but after 2 sessions each with 50 one way passes and a 24 hour soak in between I have got similar results with most of the carbon out of a 2000 + round FTR barrel that other solvents have left behind.

Permatex is mainly naptha, propane and butane in the aerosol version.

Great site btw @Keith Glasscock !

Thanks!