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SUCCESS at Last - Carbon in throat removal

A few things to note: Permatex penetrant does a good job of freeing frozen nuts and bolts, but has a very low solvency rating. Petroleum distillates and naptha are carrier fluids and not high on the list as solvents. 1,1,1 Trichloroethylene has a KB value of 124, Toluene 105, and water white xylene 98. Due to being soluble in the test procedure, Acetone, MEK, and glycol ethers are not assigned this value but are very good solvents for certain applications and especially when combined with other solvents.
The Kauri Butanol Test measures the ability of a solvent to overcome binding forces. It basically ranks the solvency of a product. The aromatics and alphatics are rated in this manner. You will notice that naptha has a KB value of 32 which is very low. If you look at Lacquer Thinner you will find that 2 components in it that really makes it shine as a solvent are Toluene and Acetone. The combination of these components break up carbon very well.
In the throat of a gun barrel we deal with both soft carbon which is easily broken up with many products, but the hard baked on carbon is often harder to breakdown and the abrasives and/or a combination of abrasive/solvent is about the only way to get it. I hope this helps. As often as I clean, I seldom fight the hard stuff! There is no wrong way or wrong product as long as we can get it cleaned up and not harm the barrel.
See attached chart
 

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This formulation has been around for many years....long before 1994 as noted! I personally know several gunsmiths and shooters who mix this in gallon containers and use it religiously for carbon. If copper is a problem, use ammonia and problem solved. This is old info for many....note it is 25% by volume acetone.
 

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The material that I mentioned is Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, which dissolves the major component in smokeless powder. When it comes to the hard stuff, I doubt that there is much nitrocellulose left to dissolve, but It really gets the other stuff out very aggressively, for about $8 for a 12oz. spray can. I friend who has tried about every rifle cleaning solvent told me that it works as well or better than the best of them. As far as using ammonia in barrels, you might want to ask Jim Borden about that. I will also relate a story. A very long time ago, Merrill Martin wrote articles for Precision Shooting. He could afford to do a lot of experiments and he did many that were interesting to me. One time I was talking with him by phone and he mentioned that he could identify barrels that had been cleaned using Sweets by inspecting him with his bore scope. Knowing that he was going to that year's Prairie Dog Conference, that was put on by a friend, and knowing that Merrill could easily afford it, I suggested that he show up with his bore scope, a video attachment, and a monitor, and prove his claim to any of the participants that cared to have their barrels inspected. As I understand it, he was able to make good on his claim. Certainly there are solvent based bore cleaners that contain ammonia that are safe, but not all are. Yes, I remember Blue Goop. I even made and used some back in the day. Luckily I did not leave it in a barrel for long, and I rinsed it out, and then dried the metal quickly, but just like me, in those days, and even today, most shooters do not have a bore scope, so they are often guessing and assuming. One of the great developments that have come along is the advent of affordable bore scopes with digital cameras built in. I have convinced a couple of shooters that I am helping to buy them, and they have been great tools. They email me pictures, and I tell them what they are looking at, and make suggestions as to proceed. Hard carbon is a real bitch when it get so bad that you cannot see any steel for a ways past the throat. I believe that the leading culprit is using brushes for way too long, but even without that, solvent alone cannot keep the problem from happening, with one exception that I know of. Shooting VV133 in a PPC and cleaning every 30 rounds or so, I never had a carbon problem using Butch's, patches and bronze brushes, brushing about one cycle per shot. During that time, I had the use of a bore scope.
 
The material that I mentioned is Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, which dissolves the major component in smokeless powder. When it comes to the hard stuff, I doubt that there is much nitrocellulose left to dissolve, but It really gets the other stuff out very aggressively, for about $8 for a 12oz. spray can. I friend who has tried about every rifle cleaning solvent told me that it works as well or better than the best of them. As far as using ammonia in barrels, you might want to ask Jim Borden about that. I will also relate a story. A very long time ago, Merrill Martin wrote articles for Precision Shooting. He could afford to do a lot of experiments and he did many that were interesting to me. One time I was talking with him by phone and he mentioned that he could identify barrels that had been cleaned using Sweets by inspecting him with his bore scope. Knowing that he was going to that year's Prairie Dog Conference, that was put on by a friend, and knowing that Merrill could easily afford it, I suggested that he show up with his bore scope, a video attachment, and a monitor, and prove his claim to any of the participants that cared to have their barrels inspected. As I understand it, he was able to make good on his claim. Certainly there are solvent based bore cleaners that contain ammonia that are safe, but not all are. Yes, I remember Blue Goop. I even made and used some back in the day. Luckily I did not leave it in a barrel for long, and I rinsed it out, and then dried the metal quickly, but just like me, in those days, and even today, most shooters do not have a bore scope, so they are often guessing and assuming. One of the great developments that have come along is the advent of affordable bore scopes with digital cameras built in. I have convinced a couple of shooters that I am helping to buy them, and they have been great tools. They email me pictures, and I tell them what they are looking at, and make suggestions as to proceed. Hard carbon is a real bitch when it get so bad that you cannot see any steel for a ways past the throat. I believe that the leading culprit is using brushes for way too long, but even without that, solvent alone cannot keep the problem from happening, with one exception that I know of. Shooting VV133 in a PPC and cleaning every 30 rounds or so, I never had a carbon problem using Butch's, patches and bronze brushes, brushing about one cycle per shot. During that time, I had the use of a bore scope.
I gotcha buddy! I've used a bore scope for years! Shot a truckload of VV133 through my PPC's. If it works, then keep doing it. Most products use 1-2% ammonia. For 25 years I've used 5% and don't soak but 10-15 min at most. I've also performed copper dissolving test with various products including up to 10% ammonia using very accurate scientific scales. After 55 years of shooting and building 5 different labs and the scientific understanding, I dont necessarily need to consult with Jim Borden about copper, who by the way is a great guy and a damn good gun builder. However, I may need to visit with him about something else. None of this is an argument for me...just passing along info and some facts. Gun cleaning technics and products have always been a very sensitive subject but few really understand the chemistry.
 
According to the MSDS, Permatex Super Penetrene is mainly Naptha, propane and butane. Naptha seems to be the main component that cleans the bore.

WD40's MSDS refers to it being 45 - 50% LVP aliphatic hydrocarbons, less than 25% aliphatic hydrocarbons and less than 35% petroleum based oil.

The interesting thing about Free All is the MIBK that it contains (see Winning in the Wind video on cleaning carbon).

I say this not being a chemist and I can't draw any conclusions except Permatex has cleaned my FTR barrel better that some named brand solvents and also Ed's Red. Haven't tried Free All yet.
 
I gotcha buddy! I've used a bore scope for years! Shot a truckload of VV133 through my PPC's. If it works, then keep doing it. Most products use 1-2% ammonia. For 25 years I've used 5% and don't soak but 10-15 min at most. I've also performed copper dissolving test with various products including up to 10% ammonia using very accurate scientific scales. After 55 years of shooting and building 5 different labs and the scientific understanding, I dont necessarily need to consult with Jim Borden about copper, who by the way is a great guy and a damn good gun builder. However, I may need to visit with him about something else. None of this is an argument for me...just passing along info and some facts. Gun cleaning technics and products have always been a very sensitive subject but few really understand the chemistry.
I have no problem with ammonia in the right combination, just Sweets. Jim's remarks were part of an old discussion on that solvent. The reason that I use something mild (Butch's) is that I am lucky. None of my lapped barrels have copper issues. One of the reasons is that my current smith uses the same method that Speedy does to smooth out the reamer marks on the leade angle after reaming the chamber. FYI Jim is not just an outstanding gunsmith. He is a professionally qualified engineer. If I wanted something stronger for factory barrels, I think that Montana Extreme would do a good job. On the hard carbon, I clean barrels that start to show a little with IOSSO, being very careful to get it all out, so I really don't have a hard carbon problem. The need to do this varies with the powder.
 
I have no problem with ammonia in the right combination, just Sweets. Jim's remarks were part of an old discussion on that solvent. The reason that I use something mild (Butch's) is that I am lucky. None of my lapped barrels have copper issues. One of the reasons is that my current smith uses the same method that Speedy does to smooth out the reamer marks on the leade angle after reaming the chamber. FYI Jim is not just an outstanding gunsmith. He is a professionally qualified engineer. If I wanted something stronger for factory barrels, I think that Montana Extreme would do a good job. On the hard carbon, I clean barrels that start to show a little with IOSSO, being very careful to get it all out, so I really don't have a hard carbon problem. The need to do this varies with the powder.
Would you happen to have experience with MR2000? I.e., does it form hard carbon faster/more than other powders?
 
I have no problem with ammonia in the right combination, just Sweets. Jim's remarks were part of an old discussion on that solvent. The reason that I use something mild (Butch's) is that I am lucky. None of my lapped barrels have copper issues. One of the reasons is that my current smith uses the same method that Speedy does to smooth out the reamer marks on the leade angle after reaming the chamber. FYI Jim is not just an outstanding gunsmith. He is a professionally qualified engineer. If I wanted something stronger for factory barrels, I think that Montana Extreme would do a good job. On the hard carbon, I clean barrels that start to show a little with IOSSO, being very careful to get it all out, so I really don't have a hard carbon problem. The need to do this varies with the powder.
Right with you! If folks followed your advice, we would all be better for it. Lots of good comments on the thread. OP mentioned carbon.....best to catch it early....don't let it bake on!
 
I have no problem with ammonia in the right combination, just Sweets. Jim's remarks were part of an old discussion on that solvent. The reason that I use something mild (Butch's) is that I am lucky. None of my lapped barrels have copper issues. One of the reasons is that my current smith uses the same method that Speedy does to smooth out the reamer marks on the leade angle after reaming the chamber. FYI Jim is not just an outstanding gunsmith. He is a professionally qualified engineer. If I wanted something stronger for factory barrels, I think that Montana Extreme would do a good job. On the hard carbon, I clean barrels that start to show a little with IOSSO, being very careful to get it all out, so I really don't have a hard carbon problem. The need to do this varies with the powder.

I tested Montana extreme. I was not impressed.

It will hurt you if you get a wiff too.

Boretech still smoked it.
 
I either clean at the range or in my garage with the door up a bit and the side door open. I have to smile, if you think Montana extreme is tough, you should have dealt with blue goop and making it from 28% ammonia. You definitely wanted to be outside and know which way the wind was blowing.
 

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