SUCCESS at Last - Carbon in throat removal

[Rick300]

wet a few patches with Gumout carb cleaner and ran them through the barrel

I wonder if Techron fuel additive would work? I sure works well on engine that are carboned up.

 

[CharlieNC]

I wonder if Techron fuel additive would work? I sure works well on engine that are carboned up.

It has been reported that the old version did well. I've tried Sea Foam, which was not very effective on the carbon but maybe I needed to let it set up over night. The old engine parts cleaner was the bomb, as it melted burnt on carbon off of pistons, etc.

 

[Rusty Wonder]

I will tell you what will teach a person to clean their barrels...

Not have enough money to buy another one...

In other words have a barrel that is "shot out" and say, "I am going to clean it down to the steel. I am either going to FIX IT or ruin it... I have not ruined one yet. FIXED SEVERAL. About 1500 rounds they just stop shooting... hmmm. I need a new barrel!!!

Nope. Probably dirty.

Tubb TMS bullets is the other key. Love those things.

I followed that exact path. Thought I had ruined my Savage 99 barrel after looking at it with a borescope.
Information with pictures on the net showed me it was just a major carbon build up. I thought I had been getting the barrel clean but the borescope proved otherwise. I took a page from Eric Cortina's book and tried CLR. I now use CLR on all my barrels. It attacks the carbon quickly but doesn't destroy the barrel.

 

[Link]

I drop my tuner / brake in a jar of CLR and watch them bubble themselves clean.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I drop my tuner / brake in a jar of CLR and watch them bubble themselves clean.

I do the same thing, only instead of CLR I simply use a concentrated solution of Lemi Shine and it bubbles/fizzes like you describe. Afterwards, here is what my Herrell's Tuner Break looks like through my bore scope:



And it does a good job on the carbon ring too plus a little help sometimes from Flitz Bore Cleaner (see before and after):

 

[muleystalker]

I do the same thing, only instead of CLR I simply use a concentrated solution of Lemi Shine and it bubbles/fizzes like you describe. Afterwards, here is what my Herrell's Tuner Break looks like through my bore scope:

View attachment 1264006View attachment 1264007View attachment 1264008

And it does a good job on the carbon ring too plus a little help sometimes from Flitz Bore Cleaner (see before and after):

View attachment 1264009View attachment 1264010

How long do you let the Lemi Shine soak?

 

[Straightshooter1]

How long do you let the Lemi Shine soak?

15-20 Minutes

 

[muleystalker]

15-20 Minutes

Thanks!

 

[jelenko]

When I tried CLR, it took out the 'loose' carbon but not the hard stuff.
For the hard stuff in the throat, after cleaning the barrel thoroughly wth Boretech and confirming there was black stuff still in the throat/first few inches, I let a wet patch sit over night. In the morning - nada on the patch and nada on dry patches pushed through. Confirmed via borescope that there was still black stuff in the throat/first few inches.

 

[1911nut]

Today I borescoped my 40X 222 and yup, carbon ring. I used SharpShooter carbon remover as per instructions and scoped. Some reduction of carbon maybe 10-15% removed.

Next Bore Tech carbon remover as per instructions, scoped and it was clear that about 3/4 of the carbon ring removed. There was much more black on the Bore Tech patches.
As stated previously by others, keeping up with the carbon ring is the key.

update: 3 more patches of Bore Tech carbon remover with 20 min soak and scoped - 90+% of the carbon ring is gone!

I like not using any abrasives.

 

[DGP4]

Today I borescoped my 40X 222 and yup, carbon ring. I used SharpShooter carbon remover as per instructions and scoped. Some reduction of carbon maybe 10-15% removed.

Next Bore Tech carbon remover as per instructions, scoped and it was clear that about 3/4 of the carbon ring removed. There was much more black on the Bore Tech patches.
As stated previously by others, keeping up with the carbon ring is the key.

My experience exactly! No cleaner takes the hardened carbon completely out, but Bore Tech is the best of the lot!

 

[urbanrifleman]

Today I borescoped my 40X 222 and yup, carbon ring. I used SharpShooter carbon remover as per instructions and scoped. Some reduction of carbon maybe 10-15% removed.

Next Bore Tech carbon remover as per instructions, scoped and it was clear that about 3/4 of the carbon ring removed. There was much more black on the Bore Tech patches.
As stated previously by others, keeping up with the carbon ring is the key.

update: 3 more patches of Bore Tech carbon remover with 20 min soak and scoped - 90+% of the carbon ring is gone!

I like not using any abrasives.

I call that soot, and yes carbon removers work on that stuff. Nothing will touch the hard stuff.

 

[1911nut]

I call that soot, and yes carbon removers work on that stuff. Nothing will touch the hard stuff.

Whatever it is the Bore Tech carbon remover removed 90% of the black stuff at the point of the chamber where the case neck ends and before the lands start.
It removed the black stuff down to the bare stainless steel.
I cleaned with PatchOut first with patches and a nylon brush, the copper and powder residue was gone but there was a black ring that the PatchOut didn’t touch. Seems much harder than soot.

 

[BoydAllen]

We really do need to start using standard terminology in these threads. I propose that we call all black stuff that some liquid can remove powder fouling, and not call it carbon. For the stuff that no liquid can remove, I suggest that everyone refer to it as hard carbon. With regard to the latter, I have seen plenty of evidence that you can keep ahead of it, with IOSSO, using a procedure that does not seem to harm barrels or shorten their lives. This would not include using a bronze brush. Recently I have become aware that if you clean certain ways with particular liquids that you can prevent the accumulation of powder fouling that would over time become hard carbon. I think that using one of these techniques in conjunction with regular bore scope use should keep you in good shape, all the time, and that if a little hard carbon accumulates that it can be removed with IOSSO fairly easily. The key is to clean all of the powder fouling every time so that it does not pile up, and become hardened.

 

[Mauser06]

Interesting thread.

I'm new to this stuff. Built a precision rifle to shoot steel. First 50 or so rounds hammered. .087" 5 shot group...everything I fed it was well under moa.

I did a break in...I was cleaning after every range session after that. 20-30rds. Good bore guide, rod, chemicals etc. I can't remember if I brushed at all. I didn't own a bore scope.

Long story short, it went to heck after that. 1.5-2moa. Pretty consistent. Once in a blue moon, it'd toss a half moa group.

Thought I didn't get along with the stock. Went to a different stock and added like 7 pounds.

thought I am just a horrible shooter.. Had 3 different shooters shoot it....same results.

Chrono showed good numbers.

Minimal runout.


Got a teslong. Looked clean. Kept trying different stuff. Over 600rds scratching my head.

I was spending time scoping the bore looking for SOMETHING. Huh? That's weird. The first few inches looked like metal...but has a weird tint to it.

If I soaked a copper solvent there it showed a light blue tint. Hmmmm

I could NOT get it out. Some did come out and I could see BLACK under it.

Further study showed the rifling basically was clogged. After I removed enough to see..the rifling basically faded away.


Figured the barrel is already junk as far as a barrel is concerned so I'm going to clean it out one way or another.

Plugged the bore and went after it with various solvents every 24hrs. Layer of hard carbon and copper. Normal brushing and patching was NOT touching it what so ever. 2 different paste bore cleaners would polish the copper and it looked like barrel steel if you didn't notice the very subtle tint...which I didn't for the longest time.


I was down to the LAST layer of hard carbon. I knew it was the end because I could see some steel. I could SEE the rifling now.

24hr CLR soak. Brushing brought out some. Actually in hard chunks. But it really didn't wanna come clean.

About the only thing I haven't tried is Iosso.

Ordered some. 2 patches later and it was clean.


Back to the range. Closing in on 700rds now and a year of an expensive frustrating headache.

25rds and all ran mid .5s or less.

Cleaned. That first 4" or so didn't wanna clean. 2 iosso patches. Clean again.

25 more rounds and again mid .5s or so.

I've had to change my load due to component struggles so basically starting from scratch again. I think I can tune the load and get it consistently under half moa.



Frustrating journey...but I learned a LOT. The bore scope is invaluable...but you have to know what you're looking at (abd I didn't) its also not an end all. Gotta learn your bore and use the scope and shooting in conjunction to tell you when and how to clean.


Guys say Iosso is aggressive and removes metal blah blah etc. They say the black patches is metal being removed.

I used a white patch on the outside of my SS Barrel. I got the patch to get a little color the first time. It removed the haze that was on the barrel. But didn't remove even the finest swirls or scratches. Didn't turn the patch black. I TRIED scratching or swirling the exterior with no luck.


I've made up my mind on how I'm going to clean now.


Don't know if my bore is normal or just likes to foul the first 4" or so....we'll find out probably next year when I put a new barrel on.

 

[dstoenner]

Well I am still going on figuring out the best approach for cleaning as a regimen. I got the barrel completely clean. This is my newer 223 1:7 that had 400 rounds on it. I started on it from a Saturday shoot then after I got it to where no patches came out with any color from either Montana Extreme or BoreTech Eliminator I started with Free All soak started in the morning, then bronze brush it in the evening. The patch would come out heavily black, then Free All soak til morning, bronze brush it and patch, repeat. Did that for 4 days. On the forth day I could finally see that the carbon was getting thinner. So I figured lets do a soak and then bronze brush it with JB Bore Paste on the brush. BINGO clean as a whistle all the way to the muzzle.

Here are pictures towards the top and then towards the bottom of the throat.


Then I took the gun to the range and shot 66 rounds plus 2 Tubb Throat Maintenance System loads to start the session. Gun shot just like it did dirty but I did have a lot of small groups of 3 shots out of my 5 shot groups. Got home and cleaned the barrel till the patches showed no color and then bore scoped the barrel. The Carbon said "I'am Back". Here is what it looked like top and bottom again



Not quite as bad for carbon. Now I wanted to see if one soak of Carb-Out would get it out. I have already tried BoreTech Carbon remover which didn't work on the hard carbon. Well the pacth had a slight grey, so I did another and let it sit for 10 hours then bronze brushed it. Nope still there. So I did a Free All soak and used JB Bore Paste on the brush. Clean as a whistle. Again top and bottom.



So now Have a regimen to keep things clean after every outing. I clean the bare with Montana extreme or BoreTech Eliminator and then do a free All soak for 12 hours and bronze brush with JB Bore Paste.

All along I had this nagging feeling that all of the bronze brushing was going to wear the barrel down. I measure my throat erosion every 500 rounds and after Saturday I was at 454, so I measured the barrel. for the last 250 rounds the barrel had only moved forward about .004 mils on all of the bullets I measure for. So I don't see that all of this brushing has done anything to the barrel. I honestly don't know about the accuracy because I am just starting my load development and don't have 1/2 moa average loads yet but I see that the clean barrel does have more consistency.

Hope this helps somebody. For me this has been yet another education on barrels.

David

 

[jelenko]

Very interesting!

By chance did any carbon come out on a patch after the Free All soak?

Do you have any data on the effect on accuracy from a 'really clean' barrel and the spotless version after the Free All and JB?

 

[dstoenner]

Very interesting!

By chance did any carbon come out on a patch after the Free All soak?

Do you have any data on the effect on accuracy from a 'really clean' barrel and the spotless version after the Free All and JB?

based on what @urbanrifleman wrote i put the free all in the bore and brushed it a couple of strokes to get it distributed and then let it soak. After 10 to 12 hours i then bronze brush brushed about 60 passes. Then patched. I don’t think free all would do much without the mechanical action. Then the patch was really black. This then went on for 5 days till I started to see a difference

this 1:7 is a new barrel to me and all my other 223 barrels have been 1:8. My1:8 loads don’t shoot as well in the 1:7. I am starting working on my 6BR. This one i know what it can do so i can compare before and after. My gut says it will be better. When i get to that i will report the results
David

 

[urbanrifleman]

I know what wears out barrels. Bullets and fire...

 

[urbanrifleman]

Once you get that barrel cleaned out down to the steel shoot you some Tubb TMS bullets down it to iron down the fire cracking.

Fire cracking is like teeth on a file. The TMS bullets smooth down the teeth. You cannot eliminate the cracks but you can smooth them down a lot. So, the jackets of the bullets stop tearing.