Bore Solvent/ Carbon Removal/ Borescope "proof"

[Nick Caprinolo]

I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but it is my belief that both copper and carbon fowling is caused by minor machine irregularities in the machining process. Bore scope a new barrel and you will find it is filled with minute pits and scratches.

Before ever firing the first shot, I always hand lap it. Three different grits, taking 300 strokes, in and out per stroke, with each grit. The results is an almost mirror finish within the barrel. It my belief, that a clean finish, leaving little or no marks within the barrel removes anything for brass and carbon to cling to.

Sort of like a blood vessel. Once a buildup of plaque starts to accumulate, leaving residue a place to cling to, it just gets worse every time you fire a round.

As for the throat, I use various sizes of shotgun brass brushes and cotton swabs to clean them.

As I said, I may be barking up the wrong tree but this is what works for me.

 

[Macropod]

A superfine polished bore will pick up copper a lot quicker than the lapped finish from a premium barrel maker.

They choose the lapping grits they use for a reason... just saying.

Pre-wearing out a barrel with 300 strokes of each grit (you say 3 different grits) is the stuff barrel makers love/hate to hear. They love it because it will create a premature barrel replacement but they hate it as it is unnecessary abuse of the barrel. They want it to shoot well, it's good for business.

If it works for you, well, good for you.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

There are degrees of cleaning, regular maintenance, slightly abused, and completely ignored bores. Also, calibers with powder amounts and types come into play. Shooting a 223 presents different fouling tendencies than say an F Class 308 barrel where a guy does not like to clean.

An example of an abused, cleaning wise, Krieger 308 barrel that I bought for cheap money off this site, which had cooked on carbon from front to back, SOLID BLACK lands and grooves. This F class barrel was shot hot as hell, NEVER cleaned properly. The Throat looked new when I got the barrel, but I had never seen a barrel carboned up as bad as this barrel. After pushing 6 wet patches then brushing the barrel, I kept looking at the Blackness in the barrel off and on for about two weeks, thinking how in the world did someone ruin a barrel like this?

I tried soaking with wipe out products for a week, patching out every day, with a re soak and brushing, always using Accelerator, then try their Tactical...all to no avail.

Then I went to C4, soaked over night, then wore out a new bronze bristle brush, with the end result, still black from end to end. I repeated brushing and soaking everyday. I would brush for 25 strokes, then another day of soaking. I used a new bronze bristle brush away every 100 strokes. I had bought three 16 oz bottles of C4 after reading posts on this site, obviously drank the Kool Aid. This process went on for 7 calendar days, the cooked on carbon showed no hint of getting thinner.

Then I saturated 5 patches with JB, short stroking the patches in the barrel on a tight fitting punch type jag. This process removed nothing or next to nothing with only the slightest hint of metal starting to come through in tiny spots about the size of a straight pin head. I figured the barrel was probably going to end up a piece of trash.

Next, I brushed again with JB, 25 strokes with a new brush, wet patched out, then dried the bore...Hawkeye showed only a hint of carbon coming out. In frustration, I put new batteries in the Hawkeye, re-focused the eye piece, and cleaned the mirror. I was ready to sling something up against the wall. I decided to use some Isso, then Flitz. I could see the very slightest amount of carbon starting to come out, but not uniform removal, looking like specs of carbon coming out.

If you go back and read my first post, you will see how I got the barrel back to new condition. It did take three, two week sessions of soaking with brushing in between. After the FIRST two week soaking, it was all too obvious that the carbon was coming out. After the third soaking and brushing, the barrel looked as carbon free as a brand new barrel.

With a long Grizzley rod, I checked the bore uniformity, and it was .3000 from end to end, Krieger made one hell of a barrel!

I cut the old chamber off and used a reamer with .090 FB, it is shooting the 155g Palma in the 2's at this point with only 21 rounds on the new chamber in brand new unsized Lapua brass with 44.0g of R#15, with WLRM primer shooting the smallest group of the primers I tried. No group was over 3/8" that I tried with powder charges ranging from 43.5-44.5 in .5g increments with 4 different primer brands used at 44.0g. Again, Krieger makes one heck of a barrel.

It will take further experimenting to see if brushing with a super penetrating oil is an answer for regular cleaning intervals for carbon. The use of penetrating oil may take time to work "under" the carbon. It was obvious that good brushing was needed in between soaking, and that the carbon was getting gooey.

If I had the GM Top engine cleaner that Bill recommended, my cleaning would probably have been a lot easier.

I would have loved to see what CLR would have done to that carbon problem

 

[1shot]

No solvent will completely remove hard carbon. C4 from Boretech has done a better job than anything else for me under scrutiny with a borescope.

If there is one trick to removing hard carbon, it is don't let it get hard in the first place! As soon as is practical after a shooting session while the bbl. is still at least warm, run several wet patches down the bore, then finish cleaning it when you get home from the match. Do in this has saved me time and money in cleaning supplies, not to mention the aggravation of what seems like endless days of cleaning. (I may have exaggerated a little there)
As an aside, C4 is the best solvent I have tried to date.
I hope this helps,

Lloyd

 

[Macropod]

If there is one trick to removing hard carbon, it is don't let it get hard in the first place! As soon as is practical after a shooting session while the bbl. is still at least warm, run several wet patches down the bore, then finish cleaning it when you get home from the match".

Lloyd

This^^.

I saturate the bore straight after the last string with an outboard engine tuner spray. Works well at keeping carbon to a minimum.

 

[theallcineyes]

Mineral spirits. Use any time you want. Cheap and very effective.

 

[centershot]

Does Kroil do anything for carbon? I use it before I start shooting and I leave a film in the barrel after.

 

[fyrewall]

The black stuff looks like carbon and acts like carbon but is it carbon?

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Does Kroil do anything for carbon? I use it before I start shooting and I leave a film in the barrel after.

Rite after shooting ill run a patch or 2 down the bore with Kroil, as soon as I get home ill stick a couple patches with my preferred carbon juice down the barrel and it seems the Kroil does help some in getting the "easy" carbon out at least, as for leaving a barrier/film in the barrel after you shoot your first shot down the barrel I don't know

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

A superfine polished bore will pick up copper a lot quicker than the lapped finish from a premium barrel maker.

They choose the lapping grits they use for a reason... just saying.

Pre-wearing out a barrel with 300 strokes of each grit (you say 3 different grits) is the stuff barrel makers love/hate to hear. They love it because it will create a premature barrel replacement but they hate it as it is unnecessary abuse of the barrel. They want it to shoot well, it's good for business.

If it works for you, well, good for you.

A superfine polished bore will pick up copper a lot quicker than the lapped finish from a premium barrel maker.

They choose the lapping grits they use for a reason... just saying.

Pre-wearing out a barrel with 300 strokes of each grit (you say 3 different grits) is the stuff barrel makers love/hate to hear. They love it because it will create a premature barrel replacement but they hate it as it is unnecessary abuse of the barrel. They want it to shoot well, it's good for business.

If it works for you, well, good for you.

It has worked for me for a long time. Remove the imperfections and there is nothing in the barrel for the carbon to cling to.

Non other than David Tubb recommends lapping and sells aluminum oxide bullets for that purpose. I prefer to hand lap my barrels.

Tubb states that by lapping a barrel, there is nothing for the carbon and brass to cling to and makes cleaning a breeze. I believe he is a better expert on the subject than you and I.

Several years ago I bought a used rifle that was nearly new. The seller couldn't get it to shoot below 3/4 inch groups and neither could I. He had put a new stock and trigger on it that I liked so I was going to rebarrel it. When I scoped the barrel, I saw the imperfections in the barrel and decided to lap it before I spent any money in a new barrel. Now it cleans in a breeze and shoots like a dream.

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

 

[fyrewall]

I don't believe the black stuff is carbon but is a mixture of just about everything else associated with the shooting process. Primers contain a mix of lead, barium, antimony, and possibly ground glass. Smokeless powders are primarily nitrocellulose with other chemical stuff added for stabilization and burn rate control. I think all this stuff, upon discharge with momentary high temperatures and pressures is mostly blown out of the barrel but enough remains to be fused together and deposited inside the barrel with the high temps and pressures. How well it sticks is somewhat dependent of the smoothness (lapping) of the barrel. The fused mess is sort of like carbon in appearance and form being largely chemically resistant and black.

I clean my well lapped rifle barrels with the butyl ethanol foam stuff, allowed to remain in the bore overnight followed by a nylon brushing with synthetic motor oil. On occasion, I use an abrasive like JB. Lots of shots make for rough areas (erosion) just in front of the chamber and the JB grinds out the black stuff.

I make it a point to wear nitrile gloves when messing with the chemicals and contact with primer and powder residue. Nitrile exam gloves allow for a real good tactile touch when handling gun stuff and keep stuff (horrible) off skin.

 

[BoydAllen]

It has worked for me for a long time. Remove the imperfections and there is nothing in the barrel for the carbon to cling to.

Non other than David Tubb recommends lapping and sells aluminum oxide bullets for that purpose. I prefer to hand lap my barrels.

Tubb states that by lapping a barrel, there is nothing for the carbon and brass to cling to and makes cleaning a breeze. I believe he is a better expert on the subject than you and I.

Several years ago I bought a used rifle that was nearly new. The seller couldn't get it to shoot below 3/4 inch groups and neither could I. He had put a new stock and trigger on it that I liked so I was going to rebarrel it. When I scoped the barrel, I saw the imperfections in the barrel and decided to lap it before I spent any money in a new barrel. Now it cleans in a breeze and shoots like a dream.

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

I think that what we have here is a difference in terminology. If you polish to a true mirror finish you will produce a jacket fouling nightmare....so if you do not have that problem, your process is leaving enough texture so that that does not happen. There is also the matter of what barrels you are using. The sort of thing that you describe is not required if one is using top quality barrels that have been lapped by the manufacturer, and for many who are posting in this thread, I believe that that is what they are referring to. Barrel makers could lap to any finish. They uniformly choose not to lap to a "mirror" finish because doing so would be a disaster. Do you own a bore scope?

 

[fyrewall]

Seems logical that a true mirror like finish, absolutely flat having no surface irregularities, would increase friction between bullet jacket and bore surface because the surface area contact would increase. I don't think a true mirror finish would be possible to obtain using normal lapping procedures but the more highly polished the surface became it would increase the contact area between bore and bullet jacket as the bullet was squashed upon traveling down the bore. Fewer valleys to glide over.

More polishing would result in fewer surface features for the black stuff to cling onto.

I don't own a bore scope, yet.

 

[BoydAllen]

Seems logical that a true mirror like finish, absolutely flat having no surface irregularities, would increase friction between bullet jacket and bore surface because the surface area contact would increase. I don't think a true mirror finish would be possible to obtain using normal lapping procedures but the more highly polished the surface became it would increase the contact area between bore and bullet jacket as the bullet was squashed upon traveling down the bore. Fewer valleys to glide over.

I don't own a bore scope, yet.

A friend, who has a bore scope, has experimented extensively with lapping barrels, using cast lead laps. If you actually lap a barrel with too fine of a grit, you will create a jacket fouling problem that will not go away with any amount of breaking in. If what you are doing gives you what you want, then keep doing it, but others who read your posts do not have the advantage of actually seeing what you are doing, so they may misinterpret what you have written and create problems for themselves.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Often, guys will let their bores get carbon baked from stem to stern.

When this happens, regular JB on a good bronze bristle brush will not remove the carbon.

I found this year that by corking the muzzle, filling the bore with a penetrating oil that is called

[/URL]

Soaking bore for two weeks, then 20 strokes with a brush, repeat up to two more two week sessions will get the caked on carbon out to bare metal with no abrasives.

I tried other penetrating oils also:

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I hope you don't wait till you need to ever have to "soak" your barrels for up to six weeks.

I use a hawkeye bore scope to inspect the bores, and they will come out bright and shinny soaking with the penetrating oil, then normal brushing with no abrasives. The Free All is worth it's weight in GOLD! If you ever have to try and bust loose rusted on bolts, you will learn the value of this product in spades, which is where I came up with all the other products.

I bought two cans. What are you plugging the bore with?

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

250, 400 and 600 grit is what I use. Now lets think about what you are saying. In removing irregularities in the bore and achieving a smooth finish, You are for certain removing some steel from the barrel. Your saying by doing this I am providing more surface which will promote fowling. More surface area would then promote squishing. Not sure what that means but when you squish something it is being squeezed which causes friction.

Question. How do you make something tighter by removing material? That seems to be against all logic and laws of physics.

One barrel is a Kelby's on a Panda action. I saw no need to lap this barrel as it was as smooth as a baby's backside when I received it. It cleans quickly and with little effort. Have had a lot of one hole groups with it.

A Remington factory barrel was really ugly inside. Wouldn't hit the side of a barn, Honed it and it shoots fine. I could go on, but there is no need. It works for me.

By the way, I read recently that by lapping a barrel, it is estimated that you only remove .0001 material from the barrel.

 

[boltman13]

Before I owned a BoreCam and started using C4 I let a Hart 6.5 twist barrel in 6.5 Creedmoor build up a carbon ring. My gunsmith found it with his bore scope and had me use Flitx soaked patches on a 7 mm bronze brush and a short stiff cleaning rod. After 3 patches and about 15 strokes on each one it was gone using his bore scope. Now I always use C4 and a Bore Cam to make sure I am not building up another ring in my F-Class rifles which go 60+ shots before I can clean them.

 

[AckleymanII]

I bought two cans. What are you plugging the bore with?

At the hardware store where they have all the various bolts and nuts, they also have rubber and cork stoppers. I used a cork stopper.

 

[BoydAllen]

250, 400 and 600 grit is what I use. Now lets think about what you are saying. In removing irregularities in the bore and achieving a smooth finish, You are for certain removing some steel from the barrel. Your saying by doing this I am providing more surface which will promote fowling. More surface area would then promote squishing. Not sure what that means but when you squish something it is being squeezed which causes friction.

Question. How do you make something tighter by removing material? That seems to be against all logic and laws of physics.

One barrel is a Kelby's on a Panda action. I saw no need to lap this barrel as it was as smooth as a baby's backside when I received it. It cleans quickly and with little effort. Have had a lot of one hole groups with it.

A Remington factory barrel was really ugly inside. Wouldn't hit the side of a barn, Honed it and it shoots fine. I could go on, but there is no need. It works for me.

By the way, I read recently that by lapping a barrel, it is estimated that you only remove .0001 material from the barrel.

You keep using the word lap. What are you using to carry the abrasive through the bore?

 

[fyrewall]

I think that what we have here is a difference in terminology. If you polish to a true mirror finish you will produce a jacket fouling nightmare....so if you do not have that problem, your process is leaving enough texture so that that does not happen. There is also the matter of what barrels you are using. The sort of thing that you describe is not required if one is using top quality barrels that have been lapped by the manufacturer, and for many who are posting in this thread, I believe that that is what they are referring to. Barrel makers could lap to any finish. They uniformly choose not to lap to a "mirror" finish because doing so would be a disaster. Do you own a bore scope?

llen, post: 37498871, member: 185107"]A friend, who has a bore scope, has experimented extensively with lapping barrels, using case lead laps. If you actually lap a barrel with too fine of a grit, you will create a jacket fouling problem that will not go away with any amount of breaking in. If what you are doing gives you what you want, then keep doing it, but others who read your posts do not have the advantage of actually seeing what you are doing, so they may misinterpret what you have written and create problems for themselves.[/QUOTE]

In response:

What I am attempting to express is actually in agreement with your findings that a close to mirror like finish on innards of a rifle barrel might incur more metal or jacket fouling than a bore surface that has more irregularities.

The key word might be, "asperity" as defined on :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperity_(materials_science)

My interpretation of the situation is that bullet jacket - bore surface contact increases with the with degree of bore smoothness (polish like mirror). The resultant increase of surface contact will result in an increase friction causing an increase of heat and metal fouling (fewer valleys for the bullet to glide over).

My method description, one of many posted in this thread, should be adequate without an actual visual inspection. My simple methods are have equal or less risk than other applications and being very simple may be easily used.

In regard to my doubts that the black stuff found stuck inside rifle barrels is "carbon" the best way to determine that would be to subject the black crud to spectrographic analysis looking for various metals such as those found in primer residues ( lead, barium, antimony) and any other combustion residues. The primary component of the highly regarded CT carbon remover as determined by MSDS is phosphonic acid, commonly used stuff that binds with metals (chelating agent) facilitating metal removal. The phosphonic stuff would have little affect on carbon (v4) which is very chemical resistant (supported by previous posts)

Unfortunately, I too ("friend, who has bore scope") do not have a bore scope to inspect both metal and black deposits. In addition, I have not sought to analyze the black glop using a definitive spectrographic analysis that would ID the make up of the black glop/deposits.

Not having a definitive analysis of the situation, I can only assume the readers of this will apply common sense to their barrel cleaning efforts and acquire some curiosity of what is occurring.

Again, get a box of nitrile gloves - no way use of these will create problems.

Thank you for your timely and pertinent response to my post.