SUCCESS at Last - Carbon in throat removal

[Martin52]

......carbon.....best to catch it early....don't let it bake on!

I agree and I think this is fundamental, clean after a match when the barrel is still warm. Everything later is about dealing with the problem when it is baked on.

 

[BoydAllen]

Even if you clean right away, most powders will gradually build up a layer of hard carbon in the throat that requires something like IOSSO to remove. This is best done regularly, before things get out of hand. Do you have a bore scope? The reason that I ask is that not everyone is aware that they are no longer cost prohibitive.

 

[Martin52]

Bought a teslong about 18 months ago. One of the first pics is below. Although it was taken before I got the focus worked out, it does show my previous cleaning regime was not effective. At present I am inclined to patch out and then bronze brush for a few passes with penetrating oil after a match, unless doing a complete clean to also get any copper out.

 

[jelenko]

Another disappointment - acetone.
Barrel cleaned with Boretech and Iosso - checked with a borescope. Almost completely bare metal in the throat.
56 shots.
Put acetone liberally on patch wrapped around Parker Hale jag - one pass only before using a new patch with more acetone.
First three patches there was some black stuff on the patches.
Fourth patch - clean.

Put boretech c4 on patch wrapped around the Parker Hale jag.
Black, then brown, stuff came out for 3 patches.

Conclusion: Acetone is not as good a bore cleaner as the original Hoppes.

 

[Longrange57]

Another disappointment - acetone.
Barrel cleaned with Boretech and Iosso - checked with a borescope. Almost completely bare metal in the throat.
56 shots.
Put acetone liberally on patch wrapped around Parker Hale jag - one pass only before using a new patch with more acetone.
First three patches there was some black stuff on the patches.
Fourth patch - clean.

Put boretech c4 on patch wrapped around the Parker Hale jag.
Black, then brown, stuff came out for 3 patches.

Conclusion: Acetone is not as good a bore cleaner as the original Hoppes.

I say keep doing what works for you!

 

[Longrange57]

About 3 months ago a very accomplished shooter with 6.5 x 47 after 350 rounds started experiencing some accuracy issues. Fired 15 shots at the range and cleaned to his satisfaction. Being a friend and shooter for years he knew how to clean a rifle. My Hawkeye showed signs of carbon after cleaning, so he ask me to clean it again. It was patched with square patches in photo with Ed's recipe made with white mineral oil rather than Dexron and acetone mixture you see in picture. Round patches with Gun Slick foam. Bore was now clean. Went back to shooting....accuracy came right back after 2 foulers. No rights or wrongs....if your method works then keep after it.

 

[Longrange57]

Another disappointment - acetone.
Barrel cleaned with Boretech and Iosso - checked with a borescope. Almost completely bare metal in the throat.
56 shots.
Put acetone liberally on patch wrapped around Parker Hale jag - one pass only before using a new patch with more acetone.
First three patches there was some black stuff on the patches.
Fourth patch - clean.

Put boretech c4 on patch wrapped around the Parker Hale jag.
Black, then brown, stuff came out for 3 patches.

Conclusion: Acetone is not as good a bore cleaner as the original Hoppes.

You may find that the acetone loosened up some of the deposits and boretech finished the job. I know guys that use boretech and it does work! I think it's water based. I'm sure you know that. Run some oil behind it. The chelant thats in it is sodium edta which is neutralized edta. Continue on with what is working. I often alternate acetone mixtures with various products like hoppes depending on how bad or what I'm trying to clean. Different powders and residues leave different problems. Not everything we are cleaning up is carbon if put under an electron microscope.

 

[dstoenner]

Update on using Acetone.

Last Saturday I took my 223 rem 1:7 to the range to continue load development. Came home and cleaned like I always do using Montana Extreme. With all the copper gone I looked at the barrel with my bore scope. Carbon was back but it did appear lighter than before. I pushed 3 patches of acetone and let sit for 20 minutes. Then pushed a patch. a little black on the patch. Next time I did the 3 patches of acetone and then at 20 minutes used a bronze brush. WOW the patch that came out was black. Did that again and now the throat for the first inch was clean. However further up was about 3 inches of black streaking in the grooves and on top of the barrel. Acetone even with bronze brushing wasn't hitting that carbon. I tried twice and then went back to Free All soak for 12 hours and bronze brush with JB Bore Paste. 30 strokes and it was clean.

I agree that the acetone does dissolve some of the carbon but not all of it. Not sure why this carbon is so tough but since I had to resort to using the Fee All/bronze brush/JB Bore Paste route which would have done even the throat, I am not thinking acetone is really the right answer unless somebody chimes in about a better method to use with acetone.

Next Saturday is my last load development ladder test and some testing of a final load for 80.5's. So I will have another dirty barrel to clean the carbon out of. Anybody have any ideas I can try again and give another update.

Thanks in advance

David

 

[Longrange57]

Update on using Acetone.

Last Saturday I took my 223 rem 1:7 to the range to continue load development. Came home and cleaned like I always do using Montana Extreme. With all the copper gone I looked at the barrel with my bore scope. Carbon was back but it did appear lighter than before. I pushed 3 patches of acetone and let sit for 20 minutes. Then pushed a patch. a little black on the patch. Next time I did the 3 patches of acetone and then at 20 minutes used a bronze brush. WOW the patch that came out was black. Did that again and now the throat for the first inch was clean. However further up was about 3 inches of black streaking in the grooves and on top of the barrel. Acetone even with bronze brushing wasn't hitting that carbon. I tried twice and then went back to Free All soak for 12 hours and bronze brush with JB Bore Paste. 30 strokes and it was clean.

I agree that the acetone does dissolve some of the carbon but not all of it. Not sure why this carbon is so tough but since I had to resort to using the Fee All/bronze brush/JB Bore Paste route which would have done even the throat, I am not thinking acetone is really the right answer unless somebody chimes in about a better method to use with acetone.

Next Saturday is my last load development ladder test and some testing of a final load for 80.5's. So I will have another dirty barrel to clean the carbon out of. Anybody have any ideas I can try again and give another update.

Thanks in advance

David

David, keep doing what you are doing. Nothing is a cure all.

 

[CharlieNC]

There’s a concept of carbon on and carbon off. There’s a certain amount of fouling that is beneficial for accuracy. Does anybody seek to maintain a certain amount of carbon in the barrel for this reason? Once you clean the barrel back down to steel, how many fouling shots are needed to bring back accuracy? My goal in cleaning is to maintain this balance of accuracy throughout the life of the barrel. While cleaning thoroughly is a good idea occasionally, I don’t think it’s necessary or even good to do this after each session. Jmo

I'm not a BR shooter but based on the ones I've talked to and all of the reports I've read, they clean thoroughly to the metal between every string if timing permits. When I started long range steel shooting ten years ago, I adopted the method you stated as that was the prevailing opinion on Snipers Hide which was my primary source of information. Since then, I shoot mostly fclass and procured a bore scope, and transitioned to cleaning thoroughly after every match, including steel. One or two foulers may be necessary to get back to dead zero, but accuracy (precision) is consistent. The worst transition is "wait until the accuracy falls off", Murphy stipulates at the worst time, before cleaning as this is the a major change vs frequent cleaning. YMMV.

 

[Gil P.]

David, keep doing what you are doing. Nothing is a cure all.

I enjoyed the article. Which solvents likely contain the substances listed at the end of the article?

 

[Longrange57]

I enjoyed the article. Which solvents likely contain the substances listed at the end of the article?

GumOut Carb Cleaner, ABC Carb Cleaner, BBI Carb Medic Cleaner, AERVOE Crab Cleaner, Carb-Out, CRC Carb Cleaner are all good cleaners with acetone/aromatics/NMP, etc. when soaked long enough and alternated with oil base barrel cleaner and bronze brush use. GumOut is my favorite as a spray on if available.
I also use Patch Out, Gunslick, Hoppe's 9, or ProShot 4.
The product I use the most is my version of Ed's Red.....however, I leave out the Dexron ATF and use white mineral oil. At the range I normally patch a few times with my product, then patch several times with a product containing acetone and/or toluene and let soak. Brush only through the muzzle 3-4 times and finish up with my product. Last 3-4 dry patches. I always brush with an oil base product.
At home or every 200 rounds I'll get more aggressive with brushing if I see carbon build up.

 

[Gil P.]

GumOut Carb Cleaner, ABC Carb Cleaner, BBI Carb Medic Cleaner, AERVOE Crab Cleaner, Carb-Out, CRC Carb Cleaner are all good cleaners with acetone/aromatics/NMP, etc. when soaked long enough and alternated with oil base barrel cleaner and bronze brush use. GumOut is my favorite as a spray on if available.
I also use Patch Out, Gunslick, Hoppe's 9, or ProShot 4.
The product I use the most is my version of Ed's Red.....however, I leave out the Dexron ATF and use white mineral oil. At the range I normally patch a few times with my product, then patch several times with a product containing acetone and/or toluene and let soak. Brush only through the muzzle 3-4 times and finish up with my product. Last 3-4 dry patches. I always brush with an oil base product.
At home or every 200 rounds I'll get more aggressive with brushing if I see carbon build up.

I think I'm going to try some carb cleaner followed by bore tech c4.

Ive got a 6.5x47 that has had a steady increase in velocity every time i shoot it. Same lot of powder, bullets, brass, and primer and I clean after every range session.

I thought it could have been the powder being temperature sensitive, but my velocities kept increasing regardless of the weather.

By the time i stopped trying to figure out what was going on, I was at nearly 3000 fps with Berger 140 hybrids. I was using the same powder weight from when I worked up that load. It started at 2800 fps and creeper up to nearly 3000.

Im thinking it's a carbon ring building up. I eliminated every other variable besides that (I don't have a bore scope), and possibly needing to turn necks.

Will using carb cleaner cause any damage to the barrel steel if I follow it with a standard bore cleaner?

 

[Longrange57]

I think I'm going to try some carb cleaner followed by bore tech c4.

Ive got a 6.5x47 that has had a steady increase in velocity every time i shoot it. Same lot of powder, bullets, brass, and primer and I clean after every range session.

I thought it could have been the powder being temperature sensitive, but my velocities kept increasing regardless of the weather.

By the time i stopped trying to figure out what was going on, I was at nearly 3000 fps with Berger 140 hybrids. I was using the same powder weight from when I worked up that load. It started at 2800 fps and creeper up to nearly 3000.

Im thinking it's a carbon ring building up. I eliminated every other variable besides that (I don't have a bore scope), and possibly needing to turn necks.

Will using carb cleaner cause any damage to the barrel steel if I follow it with a standard bore cleaner?

Sweep out bore tech with oil base as you stated. It is a high ph caustic/water base product.

 

[Gil P.]

Sweep out bore tech with oil base as you stated. It is a high ph caustic/water base product.

Okay thanks for the info. I was going to order some iosso bore paste anyway, and it looks like iosso has an oil based cleaner I can add to my cart as well.

I live close to a sportsman's and bass pro, though I don't recall seeing any bore cleaners marketed as oil based.

Would hoppes #9 do the job?

 

[Longrange57]

Okay thanks for the info. I was going to order some iosso bore paste anyway, and it looks like iosso has an oil based cleaner I can add to my cart as well.

I live close to a sportsman's and bass pro, though I don't recall seeing any bore cleaners marketed as oil based.

Would hoppes #9 do the job?

Hoppe's is great....one of the better all around cleaners!

 

[Longrange57]

I'll go ahead and post some info simply for reference only. As has been stated, carbon and other build up is often layered and different for every combination. When you see the chemical break down and possible additives it sheds some light on why various chemicals and abrasives have their place. Simply put , the build up is not all the same! Many of the gases escape which is the energy behind the bullet, but some remain and can cause hydrogen embrittlement, and many other compounds. I'll include a couple of cleaning pics with single base and double base comparison. Double base are great powders but may require additional cleaning. No big deal as far as I'm concerned. You will see a bit less buildup with H4350 as compared to RL-16....just as an example. Both shot with cci200 primers. Both shot with same rifle on same day using same cleaning chems.

 

[BoydAllen]

I'll go ahead and post some info simply for reference only. As has been stated, carbon and other build up is often layered and different for every combination. When you see the chemical break down and possible additives it sheds some light on why various chemicals and abrasives have their place. Simply put , the build up is not all the same! Many of the gases escape which is the energy behind the bullet, but some remain and can cause hydrogen embrittlement, and many other compounds. I'll include a couple of cleaning pics with single base and double base comparison. Double base are great powders but may require additional cleaning. No big deal as far as I'm concerned. You will see a bit less buildup with H4350 as compared to RL-16....just as an example. Both shot with cci200 primers. Both shot with same rifle on same day using same cleaning chems.

Do you have a bore scope?

 

[Longrange57]

Absolutely!

 

[Longrange57]

Hawkeye with Nova light and use it religiously!