Long range load development at 100 yards.

[Hollywood]

Thanks guys.

Top left was used as a "fouler" target with four rounds loaded to 2.755 to ogive (30 thou off lands). I did that sort of as an afterthought rather than choosing to make it part of the test. Fired first round, reset my zero, then fired a group of three. I was surprised at how well it shot, it was actually the best group at 0.183".

The rest of the targets 1 through 5 started off at 5 thousandths off lands and worked up to 25 thousands off lands. I didn't shoot one touching lands. They were all shot in sequence, not round robin.

I look at target #3 as a two shot group. The "flyer" wasn't just a pulled shot, it was a "Bang! oh crap I didn't mean for the gun to go off" shot as I was settling into position. That's why I picked target #2 as the final seating depth since it had good groups on either side of it so it looked to be roughly in the middle of an acceptable node.

Do you guys use the POI method of selecting seating depth, same as you would for powder charges? I had thought I would look more at consistency of of group clustering rather than POI, since I can load seating depth repeatably to 0.001. I use the Redding competition die and measure every round with an ogive comparator tool.

As a side note, I'm not quite sure what happened with targets 4 and 5. It may have been me getting tired and losing concentration, the barrel getting hot, or simply not a good node. Probably all of the above. I would have expected target 5 to be better since it's only 5 thousands different than the first sighter/fouler target.

I believe you are supposed to be looking at poi still. Changing seating depth changes pressure in the which changes velocity albeit slightly. Your fine tuning all the way and looking for that happy middle. Its still like the target on the first post of this thread, you have just been getting closer and closer to the rifles happy place.

 

[Broad Side]

I'm pretty much a noob but have been chasing this thread a couple weeks now and agree with Hollywood for the same reasons.

Thank you.

I have now read the vast majority of this thread and looked at a bunch of targets. After taking another look at my target, I completely agree with the assessments you and Hollywood offered. 41.0 printed too high. No sense going near that, in my opinion. Thought about still cheating a tenth lighter than recommended but temps are dropping here so I'm going with exactly what you recommended.

Will load 41.6 and begin seating depth testing in .003 increments. .010 from the lands right now so, might try starting at .005 and going up to .026 since it seems Erik likes to bracket his load from the powder charge test and seems to use a .020 spread.

Will see about getting some sort of chrono numbers. What are the odds that data from a cheap chrono will be useful? Don't really want to go to the extra effort for nothing.

Great thread, Erik. Thank you.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Sorry I haven't been around in a while guys.

I read the latest posts but it's late, I'm tired, and it was 3 pages of posts that I just read so I might not answer all of them, but I'll try.

50 yard should give you an indication of where the gun likes to shoot. 50 yards is better than nothing.

Sheldon, I like 2.755" for your seating depth because it will give you room for throat to burn out and gun will still shoot well.

Broadside, get away from neck sizing and F/L size your brass everytime with .002" shoulder bump. Brass will chamber and extract easier and it will be more consistent since brass will always be the same size it enters the chamber.

I will conduct a powder test, clean, and then conduct seating depth test after shooting a few fowlers. After that, I clean my barrel every 75 - 100 shots.

Some of you already understand the process and I'm glad to see that you are helping your fellow shooters, to those of you that have done that, thank you!

 

[Broad Side]

Hello, all. This is my first post since recently joining the forum. Looks like a lot of great info here and many great folks, too.

I'm new to precision rifle and reloading. Stumbled across this thread and decided to give this method a try.

Savage 10 FCP-SR (new style) 20" barrel .308 Win.
175 TMK
H4895
Fireformed and necksized Federal brass
CCI Large Rifle Primers No. 200
edit: Wind near zero

Believe I have found my maximum charge and hoping to find a node nearby. Don't believe I can go any higher with powder charges.

Erik, I would be grateful if you would take the time to offer your opinion of the results below. Other opinions also welcome, of course.

Sorry for the cut and paste job on the 40.6 group. Was also doing a tall target test today and decided to also use it for load data. Lower right dot: shot at the wrong dot with one round. Drew the 'hole' in the proper location to the best of my ability. Dots are 1". Sorry, no chrono data - was too overcast today to even attempt, anyway.

Got to the range this morning for seating depth test. Tried to get there before the wind picked up but was still windy (about 5-20 mph with varied direction). Did not hold for wind. Temps about 20-25 degrees cooler than during powder charge test.

Used the chrono today but don't know if the data is usable. Numbers seemed erratic to me. Hopefully, you guys can help me determine how useful (or not) the data is. Fairly confident about consistent powder charges. I weigh to the kernel and weigh each charge multiple times.

-.005 (first three were foulers although bore was cold and dirty)
2629
2666
2578
2564 ES: 92
2496
2588

-.008
2569 ES: 79
2530
2609

-.011
2574 ES: 50
2624
2599

-.014
2583 ES: 24
2559
2583

-.017
2629 ES: 59
2635
2688

-.020
2578 ES: 104
2682
2614

Four groups have two rounds into one hole. All four were the first two shots of the group. Shot at my fouler target on the first shot of test so, that shot is drawn into the first group shown.

Continue with depth testing?

 

[Marksman63]

I started my load development while breaking my brand new F TR .308 rig.
1 shot for fouling plus 3 shots group and barrel cleaning at the end of the 4 shots.

Berger 200 Hybrid bullet
New Lapua Palma cases neck turned to 0.015"
RS 52 powder
Federal Match SR primer
COAL 3.080" (0.020" from lands)
Loads: 44.5 - 45.0 - 45.5 - 46.0 - 46.5 - 47.0

A QuickLoad simulation suggested 46.3gr for the 4th node at 2760 fps

Looking at the target it seems I should start my seating depth test at 46.5 gr. (My magneto speed says 2762 fps), isn't it?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions

 

[Marksman63]

Forgot saying that the 44.5 gr. is a two shots group!

 

[Hollywood]

Got to the range this morning for seating depth test. Tried to get there before the wind picked up but was still windy (about 5-20 mph with varied direction). Did not hold for wind. Temps about 20-25 degrees cooler than during powder charge test.

Used the chrono today but don't know if the data is usable. Numbers seemed erratic to me. Hopefully, you guys can help me determine how useful (or not) the data is. Fairly confident about consistent powder charges. I weigh to the kernel and weigh each charge multiple times.

-.005 (first three were foulers although bore was cold and dirty)
2629
2666
2578
2564 ES: 92
2496
2588

-.008
2569 ES: 79
2530
2609

-.011
2574 ES: 50
2624
2599

-.014
2583 ES: 24
2559
2583

-.017
2629 ES: 59
2635
2688

-.020
2578 ES: 104
2682
2614

Four groups have two rounds into one hole. All four were the first two shots of the group. Shot at my fouler target on the first shot of test so, that shot is drawn into the first group shown.

Continue with depth testing?
[/quote] Your actual First group 3 shot ES is 24 and by far you best group and with no vertical. Not sure how decrease ES but it is the lowest ES and best group. May be a powder issue and may not really be an issue at all. I hear the lower the better. Hopefully Erik will weigh in on the ES question.

 

[Hollywood]

I started my load development while breaking my brand new F TR .308 rig.
1 shot for fouling plus 3 shots group and barrel cleaning at the end of the 4 shots.

Berger 200 Hybrid bullet
New Lapua Palma cases neck turned to 0.015"
RS 52 powder
Federal Match SR primer
COAL 3.080" (0.020" from lands)
Loads: 44.5 - 45.0 - 45.5 - 46.0 - 46.5 - 47.0

A QuickLoad simulation suggested 46.3gr for the 4th node at 2760 fps

Looking at the target it seems I should start my seating depth test at 46.5 gr. (My magneto speed says 2762 fps), isn't it?
Thanks in advance for your suggestions

I'd say 44.7 and continue.

 

[Marksman63]

Any other thoughts?

 

[SHootSTraight22]

If I was you I would shoot something above 47gr. to see where that final group wants to move to plus see how big that node really is.. It's a great node, you couldn't have a more stable one.. After you find out where the node goes away just baqck back down some if velocity is your goal... But from what I see there, your node is starting at 46gr and going up or through 47gr... Reshoot this test with small increments before deciding on a load,,, shoot in increments of .3 at least like, 46, 46.3, 46.6, 46.9, 47.2gr from here and lets see what they look like..??? Okay? You may find middle ground at 46.8 and have the best of both worlds, velocity plus accuracy/precision!!!

 

[Marksman63]

Thanks! Therefore do you suggest the small increments test before the seating depth one?

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Also after a cou[ple hundred rounds down that barrel try reshooting your test but just .4 grains either side of your load for fine tuning... Plus you may want to try different primers, seating depth, and bushing tension as well... Take a measure of your loaded cases with a bullet seated in the neck..,, Then subtract .002-.003 and that should be your starting neck tension.. When your ready to test different bushing purchase the 3-4 that are .004 below your loaded rounds neck measurment... You should be all good then.. Good luck!!

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Thanks! Therefore do you suggest the small increments test before the seating depth one?

Yes!! Always!!! Just load your rounds up in .3 increments within your node, even .2 increments if that pleases you better.. My final tests always conclude with .1 intervals around where I FEEL MY LOAD IS.. Then start testing seating depth after you find your load.. Then bushing or vise/versa with your load... Then throw primers in the mix for your final test.. Down the road you will get the hang of this and want have to focuse so much on certain steps especially if you have really found your best powder node... From day one my 6.5 Lapua bugholed 40gr H4350 and after 3 different powder lot # of H4350 40gr. is still the load, plus or minus .1gr... Unless your shooting bench rest you wouldn't know if 40gr was off either way with mine, basically...

 

[DHuffman]

Opinions please?

I've done numerous charge weight tests with my Savage Model 11 LRH in 6.5 Creedmoor using RL 17 powder and 140 AMAX bullets. Never could get three groups centered up vertically after shooting several tests (hundreds of rounds) I bought some h4350 and 142 SMK's

Here is the target and I feel like I can finally clearly see 2 nodes the first between 40-41 inspite of the high shot on 41 but then the 41.8 - 42.7 is really flat in my opinion. Even has the 1 hole group at 39.5 which was the 1st group after the 3 sighter/foulers that were 41

2nd firing Hornady brass, neck sized, h4350, 142 smk seated -.016, cci br2 primers

Double posted pic sorry. The newspaper is covering up other groups from a different rifle.

Low node 40.5? High node 42.2 -42.4?

 

[Broad Side]

Hello, all. This is my first post since recently joining the forum. Looks like a lot of great info here and many great folks, too.

I'm new to precision rifle and reloading. Stumbled across this thread and decided to give this method a try.

Savage 10 FCP-SR (new style) 20" barrel .308 Win.
175 TMK
H4895
Fireformed and necksized Federal brass
CCI Large Rifle Primers No. 200
edit: Wind near zero

Believe I have found my maximum charge and hoping to find a node nearby. Don't believe I can go any higher with powder charges.

Erik, I would be grateful if you would take the time to offer your opinion of the results below. Other opinions also welcome, of course.

Sorry for the cut and paste job on the 40.6 group. Was also doing a tall target test today and decided to also use it for load data. Lower right dot: shot at the wrong dot with one round. Drew the 'hole' in the proper location to the best of my ability. Dots are 1". Sorry, no chrono data - was too overcast today to even attempt, anyway.

Got to the range this morning for seating depth test. Tried to get there before the wind picked up but was still windy (about 5-20 mph with varied direction). Did not hold for wind. Temps about 20-25 degrees cooler than during powder charge test.

Used the chrono today but don't know if the data is usable. Numbers seemed erratic to me. Hopefully, you guys can help me determine how useful (or not) the data is. Fairly confident about consistent powder charges. I weigh to the kernel and weigh each charge multiple times.

-.005 (first three were foulers although bore was cold and dirty)
2629
2666
2578
2564 ES: 92
2496
2588

-.008
2569 ES: 79
2530
2609

-.011
2574 ES: 50
2624
2599

-.014
2583 ES: 24
2559
2583

-.017
2629 ES: 59
2635
2688

-.020
2578 ES: 104
2682
2614

Four groups have two rounds into one hole. All four were the first two shots of the group. Shot at my fouler target on the first shot of test so, that shot is drawn into the first group shown.

Continue with depth testing?

Continued with depth testing.

Groups were not impressive but chrono numbers were far more consistent than last test. Was windy and variable again. Did not hold for wind. -.029 is two shots.

Unsure where to go from here. Throw out chrono data from previous test?

Erik, I will look into full length sizing but this project has a very limited budget and is currently near max so it may be a while.

-.020
2609
2619
2599

-.023
2619
2650
2619

-.026
2614
2599
2594

-.029
2604
2604
xxxx

foulers (-.030 - -.031)
2609
2599
2609
2599

 

[DHuffman]

More testing, opinions please.

Re shot the two nodes from yesterday I thought looked promising this evening. Warmer 50f no wind, 3rd firing on Hornady brass, 142 SMK, H4350, CCI BR2 primers, bullets seated -.015

Shot 1-4, moved scope 4 clicks right for 5 then 2 clicks left for 6-10

I used 39.5 for sighters and got another decent cold bore group. I'm thinking the low node is 40.3 ish. I went out to 42.8 on the high end and did encounter some sticky bot lift and the primers were starting to flatten but no cratering. If I back off .5 from the 42.8 that puts me @ 42.3 which puts me in the middle of 4 pretty even targets. I think I will pursue the high node @ 42.3 and do a seating depth test from -.003 through -.021 in .003 increments.

Any opinions on this course of action would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Not sure what to say on target 4 I can't find the third hole. I'm sure I didn't shank it bad enough to be off paper so it has to be in one of those 2 holes.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Do more testing with 42gr-43gr... That's what I would test.. Also next time make your target more symetrical around the bulls eye spots so it's easier to see the slight movements in the groups... You'll be happy developing a load between 42gr and 43gr... Also you ain't trying to line things up vertical but at the same or near same impact height or area...

 

[SHootSTraight22]

More testing, opinions please.

Re shot the two nodes from yesterday I thought looked promising this evening. Warmer 50f no wind, 3rd firing on Hornady brass, 142 SMK, H4350, CCI BR2 primers, bullets seated -.015

Shot 1-4, moved scope 4 clicks right for 5 then 2 clicks left for 6-10

I used 39.5 for sighters and got another decent cold bore group. I'm thinking the low node is 40.3 ish. I went out to 42.8 on the high end and did encounter some sticky bot lift and the primers were starting to flatten but no cratering. If I back off .5 from the 42.8 that puts me @ 42.3 which puts me in the middle of 4 pretty even targets. I think I will pursue the high node @ 42.3 and do a seating depth test from -.003 through -.021 in .003 increments.

Any opinions on this course of action would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Not sure what to say on target 4 I can't find the third hole. I'm sure I didn't shank it bad enough to be off paper so it has to be in one of those 2 holes.

I was right and just saw this last target.. Reshoot the 42.4-43gr target with 5 shot groups if you wish.. Your loads in there..

 

[Marksman63]

Sorry guys if I post again my OCW Phase 1 test results (finding out/confirm nodes). I could measure speed for one load only (46.5 gr - 2760 fps) but enough for calibrating my QuickLoad simulation. My simulation says 46.2 gr with barrel time of 1.455ms which corresponds to a node of a 32" barrel.

Test specs (F Class TR brand new rifle):
Benchmark 32" 5R 1/10 barrel
Berger 200 Hybrid bullet (OAL 3.100" - -.0.020" from lands)
Lapua Palma cases (brand new - neck skimmed to 0.015") capacity 54.6 gr H2O
Federal 205M primer
Reload Swiss RS52 powder - Temp. 75F

Phase 2 would be the seating depth test.
Phase 3 will be the OCW fine tuning with speed data.

I gathered my shots done during barrel break-in on a single sheet and would share them again in order to get your feedback. I'm a little bit confused as I cannot see a clear node as very little vertical dispersions.
Erik, your thought, please!

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Sorry guys if I post again my OCW Phase 1 test results (finding out/confirm nodes). I could measure speed for one load only (46.5 gr - 2760 fps) but enough for calibrating my QuickLoad simulation. My simulation says 46.2 gr with barrel time of 1.455ms which corresponds to a node of a 32" barrel.

Test specs (F Class TR brand new rifle):
Benchmark 32" 5R 1/10 barrel
Berger 200 Hybrid bullet (OAL 3.100" - -.0.020" from lands)
Lapua Palma cases (brand new - neck skimmed to 0.015") capacity 54.6 gr H2O
Federal 205M primer
Reload Swiss RS52 powder - Temp. 75F

Phase 2 would be the seating depth test.
Phase 3 will be the OCW fine tuning with speed data.

I gathered my shots done during barrel break-in on a single sheet and would share them again in order to get your feedback. I'm a little bit confused as I cannot see a clear node as very little vertical dispersions.
Erik, your thought, please!
[/quote

Respectfully I bet if you would present your data/targets more clean (easier for us to look at, even spaced intervals, less cold bore or warm up shots on the actual test target) you would get a greater responds from people here.. Just climsing at the target I can't immediately figure or read out your intervals between shots.. It's hard to just simple look at without having a brain fart!