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Long range load development at 100 yards.

Bellaire;
I would concur that there may be better loads up around 55gr (or maybe even as high as 57gr).
It depends on how your particular rifle handles the bullet, propellant, and pressure.

I would do some pressure testing in .3gr increments up to at least 55gr, paying close attention to pressure signs on fired cases before venturing to the next increment. If firing pin hole cratering, sharp primer edges, and/or significant bolt drag on opening appear, I would recommend you immediately cease shooting any higher increments, and consider the next lower, or even the one lower than that as your specific max load for that bullet and powder in that rifle.

From that point do group testing in .3gr increments downward from that chosen max. If your load testing indicates two accuracy nodes, choose the lower one for both safety and bore life considerations.

Now, here's another consideration.

For long range shooting, my experience is that as distances increase, equipment plays a smaller and smaller role, and wind skills play a greater and greater role. The issue here is that when wind skills become the predominant factor, matters like handloading complexities become less dominant.

Yes, it is true that things like load consistency contribute more greatly to vertical at the extreme distances, but the bigger question is whether this consideration outweighs things like what the environment can wreak on one's POI. Honestly, I have found that refining my loads to finer and finer pinnacles of consistency tend to get lost in the background noise of conflicting crosswinds, up- and downdrafts, and head- and tailwinds.

In essence, the most likely cause for a 9 or 8 on my 1000yd target is going to be a misread of conditions. There are wind skills masters out there, but I am not among them, and maybe some of you reading this may fall into my category.

Or not...

My most important issue is load development. A node gets chosen mainly because regardless of groups size, a good one has the preceding and successive increments centered to the same place on the target as the bracketed one. Group performance is really too few shots to establish a bulletproof statistical lock on dispersion, but group center is a far better indicator of a highly tolerant node, one that will still deliver the 10 despite the smaller inconsistencies in loads and conditions. It's a trade-off.

Velocity is not a guarantee of success or a hedge against conditions. Regardless of whether the bullet is working at a higher or a lower node, both nodes require the same application of wind skills.

Sometimes you're going to lose a point anyway, but odds are that Ma Nature is doing the chuckling and not the Load Gremlins. Do not take your rifle to the firewall to ensure this will not happen, because it still can and it still will, and all you'll achieve is an earlier failure of your barrel. Be kind to your barrel.

BTW, a longer barrel can usually attain the same desired velocity without as much mayhem going on in the throat region.

When I curtailed the extreme extra steps in handloading for 1000yd, i found almost no difference in my performance. The key attribute to my handloading is to perform what steps I do with high attention to consistency. It's not perfect, but it's not under-performing, either.

YMMV

Greg Langelius
 
OK I just did round 2 of my testing. Temp was 65 vs the 90 degrees I had the last time i did this. I did have a little wind. I brought my magnetospeed to add additional data.

Tests as follows using new brass

box 1 70.5 gr Avg 2556 SD 34 ES 68
box 2 70.7 gr Avg 2581 SD 33 ES 67
box 3 70.9 gr Avg 2600 SD 11 ES 22
box 4 72 gr Avg 2655 SD 4 ES 8
box 5 72.2gr Avg 2642 SD 11 ES 22
box 6 72.4 gr Avg 2624 SD 18 ES 36

Middle box on left was twice reloaded rem brass use to sight in then practice shots at 70.7 gr avg 2613 SD 17 ES 47

Bottom right box with no number was 6 rounds twice reloaded brass of 72.2gr avg 2693 SD 17 ES 47. The last two shots went way right and left. barrel was hot, dirty, and I was getting impatient to go so rule them out.

A few things seem odd to me such as how can the charge weight increase but the velocity go down see 72.2 and 72.4, but when I used full length resized Remington case that same charge weight was actually my highest at 2693. Maybe i screwed up on the charge weight although i though i was being careful.

My other observation is using refired cases seemed to lower both SD and ES. this happened on the 70.2 and 72.2.

I think 70.7 is my load which was box 2 and the center where i sighted in using full resized cases vs new. That load is right in the middle of box 4 & 5 loads on the first test I did which is where the all the feedback said they thought was the sweet spot. The only change is I think I need to use all once fired brass as it is allowing better speed and lower SD/ES.

As for group size I think tightening up is more me than the gun at this point

Thoughts?

wlzthx.jpg










QwikSticks said:
Spent last week reading this entire thread - GREAT INFORMATION

Decided to try my own test on a new rifle i am trying to develop a load for. This is the first time i have ever reloaded so any help on deciphering my results is appreciated. I do have a Chrono but its a magnetospeed so I chose not to use it for this test. My goal is to get this gun accurate to 1000 yds

Rifle is a Remington 700 Long Range 300WM
Norma Brass, Federal 215 primer, Berger 230 OTM, H1000
All loads set .01 off the lands

Loads are as follows
1. 68.9 gr
2. 69.4 gr
3. 69.9 gr
4. 70.4 gr
5. 79.9 gr
6. 71.4 gr
7. 71.9 gr
8. 72.4 gr
8. 72.9 gr max load per Berger book

2w4kwo0.jpg
 
Is box 4,5,6 on the new target actually 71,71.2,71.4?

Did that tv shut down during a big game? That's twice now it's been shot all to heck. ;D
 
Box's 7 and 8 on the first go round, second go round the group centers look very very close. Too close for me to offer a suggestion on that one. Hopefully Erik Cortina is around to offer his opinion.
 
savageshooter86 said:
Seems this load is holding. First target is day one of powder testing I did.

Initial testing


This next charge test was completed after I selected a seating depth(seating test was on another target)


The final test was done to confirm and try one charge lower to see window. Top row is 42.1 and continues to 43.3. Bottom tarrget by itself was sighters at 42.1gr



Seems like 42.1 to 43.7 is window that shows stability?

I went today and used magnetospeed just for velocity readings. Here is what I got(these were same charges seen in previous targets)



Thoughts/opinions? I'm going to take a load to 1000 at end of the month. Just wandering which I should try now based on chronograph results
 
Went back to the range today and i finally have my load

The top left is 70.7 .01 off lands only change is I used once fired brass. 2579 SD 7 ES 15
The top right is 70.7 touching the lands 2607 SD 21 ES 38

70.7 was the most consistent and i stayed with .01 off the lands. I took the magnetospeed off and zeroed rifle then shot 3 more which is the middle left. Probably the best group i have ever shot.

moved to the 550yard range and shot the bottom.

I think I am done ... Thanks for all the help. Really impressed with this factory rifle.

ayvdj6.jpg




QwikSticks said:
OK I just did round 2 of my testing. Temp was 65 vs the 90 degrees I had the last time i did this. I did have a little wind. I brought my magnetospeed to add additional data.

Tests as follows using new brass

box 1 70.5 gr Avg 2556 SD 34 ES 68
box 2 70.7 gr Avg 2581 SD 33 ES 67
box 3 70.9 gr Avg 2600 SD 11 ES 22
box 4 72 gr Avg 2655 SD 4 ES 8
box 5 72.2gr Avg 2642 SD 11 ES 22
box 6 72.4 gr Avg 2624 SD 18 ES 36

Middle box on left was twice reloaded rem brass use to sight in then practice shots at 70.7 gr avg 2613 SD 17 ES 47

Bottom right box with no number was 6 rounds twice reloaded brass of 72.2gr avg 2693 SD 17 ES 47. The last two shots went way right and left. barrel was hot, dirty, and I was getting impatient to go so rule them out.

A few things seem odd to me such as how can the charge weight increase but the velocity go down see 72.2 and 72.4, but when I used full length resized Remington case that same charge weight was actually my highest at 2693. Maybe i screwed up on the charge weight although i though i was being careful.

My other observation is using refired cases seemed to lower both SD and ES. this happened on the 70.2 and 72.2.

I think 70.7 is my load which was box 2 and the center where i sighted in using full resized cases vs new. That load is right in the middle of box 4 & 5 loads on the first test I did which is where the all the feedback said they thought was the sweet spot. The only change is I think I need to use all once fired brass as it is allowing better speed and lower SD/ES.

As for group size I think tightening up is more me than the gun at this point

Thoughts?

wlzthx.jpg










QwikSticks said:
Spent last week reading this entire thread - GREAT INFORMATION

Decided to try my own test on a new rifle i am trying to develop a load for. This is the first time i have ever reloaded so any help on deciphering my results is appreciated. I do have a Chrono but its a magnetospeed so I chose not to use it for this test. My goal is to get this gun accurate to 1000 yds

Rifle is a Remington 700 Long Range 300WM
Norma Brass, Federal 215 primer, Berger 230 OTM, H1000
All loads set .01 off the lands

Loads are as follows
1. 68.9 gr
2. 69.4 gr
3. 69.9 gr
4. 70.4 gr
5. 79.9 gr
6. 71.4 gr
7. 71.9 gr
8. 72.4 gr
8. 72.9 gr max load per Berger book

2w4kwo0.jpg
 
Wow, lotsa critics out there, and for once, I love it. Not only a Jarhead, but also an HS Grad.

FWIW, I recently left a site where I had been posting nearly exclusively for about 15 years. Nicer place, this.

I occupied most of those 15 years dealing with developing my and others' factory rifles to shoot more precisely without major overhauls. Factory rifles can accomplish quite a bit, of one invests the time and skill. My two most helpful tools are glassbedding and load development, with a distinct aversion to getting caught in the maelstrom of anal nitpicking.

I own neither a concentricity gauge nor a chrono (But I'm also coveting a Magnetospeed V.3). I figure if I can't keep it down to KISS, I'm just following in lockstep.

FWIW, before I retired in 1998, my profession had refined itself to systems documentation for client education. I had been a self employed subcontractor for 11 years by then. I was cautioned to keep the reading comprehension down to an 8th Grade level. Can't say whether that helped of not, and I'm still not quite sure what the entire concept means. I wrote the way I thought, and my writing has been summarized as 'stream of consciousness'. Not entirely sure what that means, either; but I'm not changing now.

Rifles and competing with them have been a large part of my life, mainly National Match Course and F Open, serving as the motivation to get back to them following two bouts with Lymphoma, and pretty serious MI. It served the purpose admirably, although I now move a lot slower following the MI in late 2004.

I'm hoping to find a posting home here.

Greg
 
Trying my hand at load development using this method for the first time. Two rifles, both new loads. 100 yards, no chrono data.

308 GAP Crusader
23" Bartlien 11.25 twist barrel w/ APA Little Bastard brake
Berger 175g Long Range BT
IMR 4064
CCI 200
Virgin Lapua Brass

GAP_zpshf81w0xf.jpg


I'm thinking somewhere between 43 and 44.5 is the node? Ignore my chicken scratch about the .2 thou, this is 20 thousands off the lands, but looking at load data from the prior owner I think I'm jumping too much and I'll get improvement by moving in 10 thou or so. Thinking about doing a retest loading slightly longer and working up between 43 and 44.5 in 0.2g increments to see how that performs.

Am I going to be messing with too many variables by changing both seating depth and retesting?

This is virgin Lapua brass so neck tension and size are going to change slightly with reloading. Should I do the remainder of my load development with 1x fired brass or is it okay to use virgin brass?


280 Ackley Improved
26" Obermeyer barrel w/brake
Berger 180g Hybrid
Hodgdon H1000
CCI 200 primer
Remington brass (already fireformed)

280AI_zpsler2lsrw.jpg


59-60g looks like a good node. Hybrids are 15 thou off the lands. I'd be happy if it shot consistently like the 60g group.

Move on to a seating depth test at 59.5g?
 
I had a chance to continue load development using this procedure this evening. I loaded 5 rounds in .1 gr increments from 35.7 to 36.3 gr of Varget in my .22-250 shooting 53 gr v-max. bullets were seated at 10 thou off the lands.
Top row: 35.7 35.8 35.9 36.0
bottom row: 36.1 36.2 36.3

This is what i came up with. Was dealing with some gusty wind so some of the groups could have been better than they were and this was not one of my better days shooting but i am satisfied with what i have found at this point. It looks to me like the best part of the node is at 35.9 gr.

Any thoughts? Opinions? Am i correct in going with the 35.9 gr load?

Edit: i forgot to mention that i adjusted the scope after the first group so that POI would be on the targets.
 

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Sheldon N said:
Trying my hand at load development using this method for the first time. Two rifles, both new loads. 100 yards, no chrono data.

308 GAP Crusader
23" Bartlien 11.25 twist barrel w/ APA Little Bastard brake
Berger 175g Long Range BT
IMR 4064
CCI 200
Virgin Lapua Brass

GAP_zpshf81w0xf.jpg


I'm thinking somewhere between 43 and 44.5 is the node? Ignore my chicken scratch about the .2 thou, this is 20 thousands off the lands, but looking at load data from the prior owner I think I'm jumping too much and I'll get improvement by moving in 10 thou or so. Thinking about doing a retest loading slightly longer and working up between 43 and 44.5 in 0.2g increments to see how that performs.

Am I going to be messing with too many variables by changing both seating depth and retesting?

This is virgin Lapua brass so neck tension and size are going to change slightly with reloading. Should I do the remainder of my load development with 1x fired brass or is it okay to use virgin brass?


280 Ackley Improved
26" Obermeyer barrel w/brake
Berger 180g Hybrid
Hodgdon H1000
CCI 200 primer
Remington brass (already fireformed)

280AI_zpsler2lsrw.jpg


59-60g looks like a good node. Hybrids are 15 thou off the lands. I'd be happy if it shot consistently like the 60g group.

Move on to a seating depth test at 59.5g?

44.3 on the .308 Win.
59.7 on the 280 AI

Move on to seating depth testing on both.
 
Erik thanks for sharing your knowledge on an open forum. I've only been reloading for a couple months now and have struggled to develop a load for my 6.5 creedmoor. I've been reading your thread for about a week now and feel I've made some real progress finally.

Hoping you & anyone else for that matter will "read" my groups and give your opinion. I have 2 sets to show you the first from the 6.5 creedmoor the second a .308 win.

Thanks again. The three center shots (2 on the .308) in each target are sighters. The high shot on 42.5 was pulled I knew I botched it the minute it broke.

Top target 6.5 creed 1st row l to r 40, 40.5, 41, 41.5 2nd row l to r 42, 42.5
Shooting fire formed neck sized hornady brass, RL 17 powder and 140 gr AMAXs, -.010 Savage 11 LRH Vortex 6-24

Bottom target .308 1st row l to r 43.3, 43.5, 43.8, 44.1 2nd row l to r 44.4, 44.7
Shooting fire formed neck sized PMC brass, Varget powder and 168 gr AMAXs, Howa Targetmaster Nikon Monarch 3

I have my charges picked but want other opinions.
 

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Erik, thanks for this awesome thread. I had read the OCW article online months ago and I thought it was interesting, but after following this thread now I'm really interested in trying it. I have a couple of questions. Why does Dan Newberry insists in keeping the load near max? And my other question, can this load development work on a 50 yard range? (My buddy's land is off limit due to hunting season, and I can't wait until Spring to try this!
Thanks. Ricky
 
Followed up with quick seating test. This was my "window" I believe so only showing these seating depths. The others were good but -12 to -18 were good looking groups I believe.
** largest group from seating test was 0.426 MOA, the rest were all under 0.400 and several in the mid 2s and the rest in the mid 3s

 
Opinions please.

6.5 Creedmoor bullet seating depth test. 42.2 gr RL 17
 

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