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Tuner Test - results confusing

Mostly yes, but I wouldn't limit myself to .250 groups if the gun a and load want to do more...but I think we're mostly in agreement.
I should have said “only capable” instead of “capable”.

Not many sub .2 guns out there, in any discipline, really.
Interesting. So are you opining that most custom benchrest guns are not sub .25 guns?

Whatever the case, in tune is in tune with or without a tuner. You have to learn how to tune and putting a tuner on and turning it will not get you there. There seems to be a whole lots more to it, starting with learning how to make truly consistent ammo. Easier said than done.
 
Your 100 percent correct but the truth of the matter is many if not most want the tuner to turn their rifle into sub .2. Those unwilling to do the work and test on their own will seldom ever get there. Why are some always up "There" and many seldom get a wiff.
Absolutely Jeff. If the preliminary load development is left undone then the tuner will never be able to tune the load to it's true potential in any rifle.
 
I should have said “only capable” instead of “capable”.


Interesting. So are you opining that most custom benchrest guns are not sub .25 guns?

Whatever the case, in tune is in tune with or without a tuner. You have to learn how to tune and putting a tuner on and turning it will not get you there. There seems to be a whole lots more to it, starting with learning how to make truly consistent ammo. Easier said than done.
I agree about tune. As for true sub .2 guns...just look at the match reports. They don't score us on a curve based on wind or tune. When every shot is scored, that tells the truth more than anything, IMO. Here's a link to last year's IBS group nats, fwiw. Roughly half the field at .250 or better but only a few sub .2's.

"If I do my part" includes reading wind and keeping the rifle tuned. I'd bet a third of the guns were not tuned to their potential, maybe more than that.
 
Here is some load development work and ultimately tuner setting test (on the bottom of the target) conducted on a .284 win. Weather for tuner testing was not ideal (12-15mph from 7-10 o’clock). You can see the phase shift with each subsequent tuner setting. These a three shot groups at 100 yards and I will let the forum evaluate which tuner setting was selected after Mike and I thoroughly discussed this target. Also, I decided that I will shoot this tuner test again in the calmest of conditions to see if the pattern is a tad clearer.
FEAA2117-D624-4FDE-B961-E508F4A344E3.jpeg5E5560AB-4345-46DB-963A-E3594F458288.jpeg

Shoot straight and good luck,
Dave
 
I cant make heads or tails from this, but as my father said, “somewhere in all this horse poop, is a pony”.

If that were my targets, I would not be able to make any conclusion regarding the tuner, because the group sizes, shapes and placement are not consistent enough to see the changing tuner variable.

There is too much shooter / platform induced 'noise'.

If I were to choose something, it would be the setting at 20, and try that at match distance to see what it looks like on target.
 
The wave is apparent although shallower then the test pic of Mike's !!
He did mention to shoot this in better conditions, and my decision to
pick 13 was because of it's near perfect round shape and it's sitting on
top the wave. I would however need to see a repeat.

Now a question for both Dave and Mike.....When your test targets were
shot, was there any barrel cleaning involved during the test or was all
shots fired straight forward ?? Dave's Target shows 45 shots. Could one
trust the tuner as the barrel gets dirty ?? Just more to put on the table
and discuss over.
 
Let me repeat, if your using the tuner to find the load your doing it wrong. Tune the rifle lets say until you get repeating groups of .200 or less. At this point try to refine it with the tuner and as rounds go or conditions change learn to use the tuner to stay on top of your tune. In regards to Fujs mention of cleaning, it's sad but true that many are to lazy to keep their barrel clean while trying to time their rifle. And then again if your doing any of the above without flags, you deserve what you end up with. In regards to Fujs idea on 13, yes it's round but lots of times big round I find is hard to make time round. Sometimes it's easier to take bitten row 9 and squeeze it together to a hole by taking the vertical out with powder.......not with the tuner until you establish a tuned load. Too much looking for a shortcut.
 
Note the wind speed and direction. It's tough to shoot anything to its potential in 13-16mph wind from 10 o'clock, while freezing your butt off. Lol! But, knowing that info is important to reading the groups as best I can. This one is tough due to wind but we talked it over and I think he has something to work with but should test around those settings in better conditions to confirm. It's clear that some people were paying attention before. Thanks!
 
Ok, ice stopped falling from the sky and it warmed up and wind was mild. Wind in my face straight on at 6 mph. Still noticed an ocasional left to right gust at 10-11 o’clock. Had some streamers up and might have got caught on a couple. This is Oklahoma - so the wind blows all the damn time.
Dip weed operator turned the tuner backwards to 14 on the first adjustment.
 

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So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?
 
So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?

no one is going to be able to answer this one.
you are just going to have to spend the time measured in years to figure this out
by thousands of rounds spent shooting these conditions evaluating the effect of the changes you make thru the day.
I wish there were, but no short cuts in this
some may tell you move the tuner in or out as temp goes up. all that can be gained from that is to move it and decide for yourself what works
 
So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?
Are you talking to me? I'd say 14 or 23 but the test is supposed to be 15 groups so I can see groups on either side of what appears to be a sweet spot. I understand about wind, especially this time of year. Ultimately, it's no different than trying to tune in the wind without a tuner. Best advice is find better conditions. A switchy headwind is hard to shoot and I'd be guessing at which groups you got caught in a switch on. There was more info regarding which way I'd go and why in the thread that was removed. I've been asked not to post regarding that thread but was also told that he might put it back up when he has time to clean it up, so I'm in a tough spot here. The shots fired in a switch need to be marked and fired again. I know it's damn near impossible to get 45 perfect shots off, so that's why. You have to understand, you're asking me to decipher an incomplete test fired in a nasty tuning condition and to pick which groups are tune related and which are shooter error. Group shape and position help, that's how I come to 14 or 23, but the test needs to be better. Don't get me wrong, it's better than some I see but there is a rhyme and a reason why I'm very specific about how to do the test and that any shot fired in a switch be marked and shot again. You're on the right track though.

I'm predominantly looking for a sweet spot at top and at bottom, followed or precluded by a group that is straight vertical, followed by another that goes diagonal up and to the right, consecutively. A switchy headwind can cause the vertical but it won't cause groups that go up and to the right, from a rh twist bbl. BUT, wind might keep those shapes from appearing, which is what this looks like to me. Take say 22, 21 and 20 for example. We have a good group at 22, straight vertical at 21 and 20 might have been up and to the right, if not for wind making it go pretty much straight vertical.

Wind matters a lot. Would you do standard load work(fine tuning) in the condition you were shooting in? Now imagine doing it at 600 or 1000.

You're not doing too bad and it looks like the gun and load are gonna shoot but fine tuning needs to be in the best conditions possible. You have to trust every single shot, or fire again. Once you get through this part of it, you don't ever really have to do it again, but it's not a bad idea. You can go to the top and bottom sweet spots and work around those.
 
no one is going to be able to answer this one.
you are just going to have to spend the time measured in years to figure this out
by thousands of rounds spent shooting these conditions evaluating the effect of the changes you make thru the day.
I wish there were, but no short cuts in this
some may tell you move the tuner in or out as temp goes up. all that can be gained from that is to move it and decide for yourself what works
I agree that it takes time to learn how to read groups. Especially when the wind is blowing while tuning, but there are group shapes that can rule wind out, which greatly helps. A GOOD test target shows which way to go with the tuner based on group shapes. Just like it shows which way to go with powder charge or seating depth, IME. I contend that anyone that can tune by traditional methods can tune with a tuner because the effects on target are very similar, if not the same, if broken down to small enough changes in either.

example...If you go to a match with 29.0 gr of n133 in a ppc and it shoots the worst it ever has, how far up would you go? Does 1.0-1.2 gr sound about right? That's a lot but you are completely out of tune at 29.0. So how much to bring it to full on tune? How much for almost a bullet hole of straight vertical? Does .3 sound close?
Typical sr rifle with my tuner...1 mark out is straight vertical and 4 marks, completely out of tune....worst it's ever shot.
 
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