Tuner adjustment on the target

[foxguy]

Not much time today. Still cleaning up from the storms Friday night.
It really doesn't matter if the target is this sine test or if it's fired in a match, the group SHAPES still happen in the same progression. The sine test just offers more info to work from, but not needed once tuned for a given load...Maybe more on that later but I've discussed it many, many times on here.

For the context of your question, just look at 10, 11, and 12 on here. Forget everything except group SHAPE! This is EXACTLY what I look for the groups to do, moving MY standard tuner ONE mark at a time.

In this very clear(to me) example, if I get vertical(11), I'd move the tuner IN one mark. If I get 12, I move in two marks. The beauty of the sine test is it shows you how far, which way, top and bottom of swing, as well as mark values and how far between sweet spots. You must establish mark values relative to group shapes or else, you're guessing, no matter what tuner or who it is shooting.

Yessir!!! It IS that predictable too!

Later!

View attachment 1661577

Curious, I would like to see groups 15,16,17 if they were shot. and would like to see position of impact and grouping.

 

[ELR LVR]

Last two targets View attachment 1661942

This was shot in a 600 yard registered IBS match. 4 target agg.

My notes tell a pretty good story

CW

This is some good verifying results here while moving one mark at a time.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Curious, I would like to see groups 15,16,17 if they were shot. and would like to see position of impact and grouping.

I believe I said the same thing to the person that sent me that target! 10-12 show the exact group progression I look for. Like I said before, it's typically about 8 marks between sweet spots.(sr br rifle) So, I would expect to see the poi move up and be back in tune at about 17 or 18. It did this at 2 and at 10 and can be seen on the target....8 marks apart.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I still like Group #14 and would go with that and test repeatability.
And yes I am looking at group shape
I like to see a nice round clustered group if it is spread at all
as opposed to / a tight 2 in one hole with 1 oddball outside the group.
and I'd adjust scope 1 click down and left to compensate for any POI difference,
Forget where the group lands, if all shots are accurate... that's what the scope turrets are for
#14 is a nice tight clustered group
But I could be wrong, since I'm not a Tuner guy ... yet
--- You have more experience there
I do see #2 has some good elevation/waterline characteristics
Is this what you are looking at? regardless of the spread being bigger than #14?
I have a tuner, but have not attached it to any rifle yet as I am still learning all this tuner stuff.
-------------
Now is Group #0 just one shot?
Because that is obviously the tightest of them all if it's 3 shots.
If I could get all my guns to shoot like that I'd be exstatic
Unfortunately, my factory stocked light barrel guns
only shoot about this good during ladder test work ups

View attachment 1662572

I don't just look for smallest groups. On it's own, each group is just a single 3 shot group and we all know that one group means nothing, or very little.

I look at POI where it shoots small, followed by group progression as you continue moving the tuner out, how many marks are PREDICTABLY between sweet spots, as well as yes, group size and shape. It's not any ONE of these but a combination of all that confirms the setting. Zero and 14 are both small but neither are at top nor bottom and neither are followed up by the shapes I want to see. Nor are they spaced where they should be. IME, you can tune to spots like 0 and 14 but they will be very tune sensitive and less repeatable.

Tuners change phase time. In very simple terms, they are a tool that allows us to shift the top or bottom of the sine wave left or right to coincide with bullet exit.

 

[ELR LVR]

how many marks are PREDICTABLY between sweet spots,

Ok ya lost me there,
Haven't heard of doing this
Is there a certain number of marks you expect to find between sweet spots to conclude it is a good tune?
Like 3 marks between or something like that?
And if it is only 1 mark but shoots excellent al of a sudden, then it may be unpredictable
---------------------------------
However I do understand what you mean by a load being tune sensitive even if it shoots good
Today, or right now
But next time, isn't as consistent or repeatable, heck it may even throw fliers next time out
When I find what looks like a good load, I dont settle on it
I go back out, tomorrow, and next week and test again, and again
for repeatability
or I retune
So I guess that is what youre doing? But with your tuner

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ok ya lost me there,
Haven't heard of doing this

I've hit on this point in a few of my last posts. The sine test essentially shows the frequency on target..the distance between nodes...or anti-nodes. This frequency or distance is a constant, generally speaking. So if it's 8 marks between today, it'll be 8 marks tomorrow. Therein lies how simple using one becomes, once you establish factors like how many marks from completely in tune to as bad as it can shoot, ie, anti-node to node, and the respective group shapes between. If there are 8 marks between anti-nodes, there are half of that from anti-node to node, etc...So, 4 marks from in tune to terribly out. So, learn those 4 group shapes!

This is in the competition forum so is based on comp guns and bbl contours. You can do and see the same things on a very good shooting hunting rifle but the predictability from most hunting rifles is just not the same and the results harder to reliably see/read. You mentioned that you shoot only hunting rifles so I thought this might need to be pointed out, for clarity. The more dependable you and your rifle/load are, the more you can rely on the group shapes. Once again I'll say, this is with MY tuner and the examples given are with sr br rifles and bbl contours. Different makes/designs of tuners as well as drastically different contours will give different results. So, you may or may not need to move more than a mark at a time with yours. But frankly, until you know these things in regard to whatever tuner you use, it's guessing...or moving and hoping.

 

[ELR LVR]

I've hit on this point in a few of my last posts. The sine test essentially shows the frequency on target..the distance between nodes...or anti-nodes. This frequency or distance is a constant, generally speaking. So if it's 8 marks between today, it'll be 8 marks tomorrow. Therein lies how simple using one becomes, once you establish factors like how many marks from completely in tune to as bad as it can shoot, ie, anti-node to node, and the respective group shapes between. If there are 8 marks between anti-nodes, there are half of that from anti-node to node, etc...So, 4 marks from in tune to terribly out. So, learn those 4 group shapes!

This is in the competition forum so is based on comp guns and bbl contours. You can do and see the same things on a very good shooting hunting rifle but the predictability from most hunting rifles is just not the same and the results harder to reliably see/read. You mentioned that you shoot only hunting rifles so I thought this might need to be pointed out, for clarity. The more dependable you and your rifle/load are, the more you can rely on the group shapes.

Ok ok, now that's making more sense
Thanks man!
So you're essentially plotting out the sine wave

 

[ELR LVR]

If there are 8 marks between anti-nodes, there are half of that from anti-node to node, etc.

Right, so half wavelength, and you're determining the amount of marks this coincides with on your tuner then?
And can then more or less pinpoint the
Node
and the
Anti-Node
--------------------------------
So then how do you determine which is which
by POI? and if so
Where do you want your POI to be if it is tuned to a Node?
Up down or middle?
---------------------------------
I hope I'm understanding and speaking the same language so theres not a language barrier here

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Right, so half wavelength, and you're determining the amount of marks this coinncides with on your tuner then?
And can then more or less pinpoint the
Node
and the
Anti-Node
--------------------------------
So then how do you determine which is which
by POI? and if so
Where do you want your POI to be if it is tuned to a Node?
Up down or middle?
---------------------------------
I hope I'm understanding and speaking the same language so theres not a language barrier here

Yessir! You're getting it. It'll shoot small at top and bottom but pc can only happen on the upswing. PC is more important for rf and lr than for sr. For sr, I may very well go with the bottom as shown clearly at marks 10,11 and 12 on the target posted. I may do this for a few reasons...One is that 10-12 are EXACTLY the group shape and poi progression I want and expect to happen. Also, while the groups open more clearly there than say 2-4...that's not a bad thing because, remember, I'm reading my state of tune by group SHAPE. In sr br, I have unlimited sighters and I can see them, so I can tune by them..or check tune.

Now, in rf, where ammo is crap and might have 30-40fps es, or in lr, where every bit of es shows on target without pc, I'd put more emphasis on tuning to the top of bbl swing to utilize whatever pc my rifle and tune will give me. See the difference and the reasoning there?

 

[ELR LVR]

Yessir! You're getting it. It'll shoot small at top and bottom but pc can only happen on the upswing. PC is more important for rf and lr than for sr. For sr, I may very well go with the bottom as shown clearly at marks 10,11 and 12 on the target posted. I may do this for a few reasons...One is that 10-12 are EXACTLY the group shape and poi progression I want and expect to happen. Also, while the groups open more clearly there than say 2-4...that's not a bad thing because, remember, I'm reading my state of tune by group SHAPE. In sr br, I have unlimited sighters and I can see them, so I can tune by them..or check tune.

Now, in rf, where ammo is crap and might have 30-40fps es, or in lr, where every bit of es shows on target without pc, I'd put more emphasis on tuning to the top of bbl swing to utilize whatever pc my rifle and tune will give me. See the difference and the reasoning there?

it is making more sense now than before yes thank you.
I still yet do not understand how you could be happy with a bad group shape though
(Opening up, to me opening up is a bad thing)
unless that is merely an indicator of Approaching or being in an Anti Node
Which if this is the case then it told you this ...which is why it is good.
However....if you LIKE an opened up group shape, but the POI is good
How do you then close it up?
By then going back to charge or seating depth?
Or did I misundertsand where you say
"while the groups open more clearly there than say 2-4...that's not a bad thing"

If I could understand why groups opening up are NOT a bad thing, I think It will be time to install my tuner LOL

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

it is making more sense now than before yes thank you.
I still yet do not understand how you could be happy with a bad group shape though
(Opening up, to me opening up is a bad thing)
unless that is merely an indicator of Approaching or being in an Anti Node
Which if this is the case then it told you this ...which is why it is good.
However....if you LIKE an opened up group shape, but the POI is good
How do you then close it up?
By then going back to charge or seating depth?
Or did I misundertsand where you say
"while the groups open more clearly there than say 2-4...that's not a bad thing"

If I could understand why groups opening up are NOT a bad thing, I think It will be time to install my tuner LOL

Again, the groups at 11 and 12 clearly show I need to adjust tune. If I get a group like 12, as the target shows, I'd go IN 2 marks to 10.
I do not advocate changing two things at once. IMO, if you're gonna change anything about the load to maintain tune, don't move the tuner too! At least, not unless you know what to expect. Since any load change could take you to a completely different exit time, hence a different waveform altogether...how would you possibly know that? As to why I might go with the setting where groups progress more clearly as tune goes away, it's just that...because it's clearer. It's like hitting me over the head rather than guessing. There are no wide spots with a tuner. Remember, we're changing a constant so any change should have a corresponding change to group SHAPE. Now, at top in this example, the groups don't open as much but aren't bad but they still show a lack of tune and it's shooting just good enough to lose, particularly in sr. But if you can't see or don't have sighters, the shapes at 2-4 have some merit, ie lr. I just don't like to ever go to the line with a tune that is either hard to read or one that may have me question tune. And to me, the whole purpose of a tuner is two fold. One is to never be out of tune, if I do my part. And two is to maintain absolute peak tune while going pre loaded.

I've done this for years with tens of thousands of rounds in addition to vibration testing. It just seems so easy to me but that sine test is solid freakin gold! It shows you everything you need to know including which way and by how far to move the tuner!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Now some lr tuning, if Clay doesn't mind.
These targets clearly show vertical, just like setting 11 on the sine test target I posted...clear vertical.
So, based on the sine test I'd gi IN 1 mark to get rid of the vertical. See setting 10 and 11 on sine test target. See why, now? Clay has a pretty good handle on using his tuner and his results show that.

 

[Shooter13]

Forget where the group lands

Can't do that for score, I have to know the pattern where it's at and then adjust my scope for my zero then when I'm at the match I may readjust a little bit but I will not Chase a flyer

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Can't do that for score, I have to know the pattern where it's at and then adjust my scope for my zero then when I'm at the match I may readjust a little bit but I will not Chase a flyer

Right...that's what they put turrets on scopes for! Or of course you can hold for it. FWIW, and clarity...I would never move my tuner in the middle of a group or without going back to the sighter in sr score, to verify any poi change. If you start a group out of tune, you're in trouble for that one. Same goes for changing anything about the load too, though. Not many people are gonna finish a group with two different loads so why would they move a tuner during a group? Very much the same thing.

Gotta get back to work. Later!

 

[ELR LVR]

Again, the groups at 11 and 12 clearly show I need to adjust tune. If I get a group like 12, as the target shows, I'd go IN 2 marks to 10.
I do not advocate changing two things at once. IMO, if you're gonna change anything about the load to maintain tune, don't move the tuner too! At least, not unless you know what to expect. Since any load change could take you to a completely different exit time, hence a different waveform altogether...how would you possibly know that? As to why I might go with the setting where groups progress more clearly as tune goes away, it's just that...because it's clearer. It's like hitting me over the head rather than guessing. There are no wide spots with a tuner. Remember, we're changing a constant so any change should have a corresponding change to group SHAPE. Now, at top in this example, the groups don't open as much but aren't bad but they still show a lack of tune and it's shooting just good enough to lose, particularly in sr. But if you can't see or don't have sighters, the shapes at 2-4 have some merit, ie lr. I just don't like to ever go to the line with a tune that is either hard to read or one that may have me question tune. And to me, the whole purpose of a tuner is two fold. One is to never be out of tune, if I do my part. And two is to maintain absolute peak tune while going pre loaded.

I've done this for years with tens of thousands of rounds in addition to vibration testing. It just seems so easy to me but that sine test is solid freakin gold! It shows you everything you need to know including which way and by how far to move the tuner!

Ok so let me guess here
If your groups open up, that is likely an Anti-node (bad spot to tune to)
and you see the groups do the same thing again at say 8 marks out (another Anti-node_)
And if the waveform is always going to be the same and predictable
Meaning going another 8 marks out does the same thing again.
Then, the obvious choice is to try and tune between those at say 4 marks out or in
So the Bad, HIGHLY open groups, when you plot 2 or more of them and they are repeatable
Give more prominent evidence and merely tell you where to set the tuner in between then?
Is this right?
---------------
As opposed to looking at only good groups which would make it hard to differentiate which of them is the best choice to pick

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Ok so let me guess here
If your groups open up, that is likely an Anti-node (bad spot to tune to)
and you see the groups do the same thing again at say 8 marks out (another Anti-node_)
And if the waveform is always going to be the same and predictable
Meaning going another 8 marks out does the same thing again.
Then, the obvious choice is to try and tune between those at say 4 marks out or in
So the Bad, HIGHLY open groups, when you plot 2 or more of them and they are repeatable
Give more prominent evidence and merely tell you where to set the tuner in between then?
Is this right?
---------------
As opposed to looking at only good groups which would make it hard to differentiate which of them is the best choice to pick

Pretty much, yes. The only thing I will point out is that we want to tune to anti-nodes. IE, top or bottom, not middle(node) For discussion's sake, we use the term node often but incorrectly. Doesn't really matter much as long as everyone knows what you mean in regard to a good load/tune.

 

[ELR LVR]

View attachment 1662725

I think it's coming together more
So I crossed my eyes and fuzzied them like you do with them 3d pictures to make 'em pop out at ya
and I finally see the sine wave pattern
(I was looking at each group individually as opposed to the whole thing like a snake
that was my mistake)
And in Groups 2 and 3 I see them hitting the peak of the sine wave, correct?
Is this PC?
And is this where I would want to tune/experiment with?
Or also the opposite at groups 9&10, the lower extreme of the waveform ?