Rule Question - FTR

[ptd]

How do spikes alone provide a mechanical method for returning to its precise point of aim? The bipod with spikes and adding a rear bag alone still provides no mechanical method of doing so, and even when you add in the shooters shoulder it still will not return to its precise point of aim...

The claws I can see being 'interpreted' differently with multiple 'points' making contact... But that brings up a whole 'nother can of worms with what constitutes a 'contact point'. If it is perhaps defined as a measurement of surface area making contact with the ground - where does that leave the ski feet style bipods? What of hybrid designed factory bipods like the Sako TRG bipod that both seem to have flat feet and little nub spikes? Head hurts...

I've seen the argument that 'no serious shooters use them so its not an issue' during my googling of the topic, well perhaps I am not a serious shooter as I just started participating in local MR F-T/R shooting on a regular basis this past December... However at the time I read the rules, looked at my equipment and concluded I was ok - until recently when someone quietly more or less accused me of cheating...

I've read, re-read the rules, googled the topic quite a bit and even now I am more or less back to where I started. So with me wanting to be a good citizen/competitor of my new found sport - how do I proceed in getting official clarification with perhaps the language in the rules amended / changed to say either way? Looking at the NRA website I see an email for the 'High Power Rifle' that is nrahighpower@... Would an email to this address suffice as a formal request that I should expect a reply and/or official action from? Or is there another formal path I should follow?

That being said I do appreciate the input as it does give me something to noodle over. Perhaps I am making something out of nothing as at the non serious local level I am participating in it has only been brought up once - and even then not by a match director. In the end I'm just trying to have fun and learn, it's just that the comment kinda spoiled my day and has been festering away in the head. Perhaps that was his goal? PSYWAR... (I jest).

-pd

 

[Trevor60]

Seems i got my rule books mixed

ICFRA rules state the following
http://www.icfra.co.uk/FCRules_2009.pdf
F2.20.1.
The F/TR bipod may have up to two “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed
into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation
to the firing point. A “ski” facilitating free recoil is also permitted.

DCRA rules state the following
http://www.dcra.ca/rulebooks/Rule%20Book%20-%20complete%20for%20website%20May%202012.pdf
11.15 Rifle Rests
For FTR a bipod only may be used for a front rest.

NRA rule state the following
3.4.1 (3)(b)
3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to
the forend of the rifle. The bipod may have rigid or folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate
for the uneven surface of the firing point


in all three rule books only one address Feet (ICFRA) The NRA as listed above address legs and it states no more then two legs touch the firing point (presumably to avoid someone using a tripod or more) it does not however address the foot at the end of the leg as such and per the understanding i was provided at a national event. I will take that interpretation against a regional or local opinion.

that being said unless you are a national rules officer any local or regional event could bar you from winning their event if they feel the claw or other type of feet are in contravention of the rule

Best of luck
Trevor

 

[Trevor60]

a Bi Pod per the Rules contact the Firing Point in only "2" spots, a Claw/foot with 3 or more points per leg would make 6 plus contact points making it illegal.

It's up to us competitors to straighten out the Rule Book, they act per a formal request to take to the Committee.

this is a very interesting understanding of the rules, because as written the rules 3.4.1(3)(b) does not appear to support that interpretation you have provided. It state the two legs can touch the firing point (again clarifying you can not use a tripod) The understanding "in only two spots" would be changing the rule (my view) as even a ski foot looking like this \___/ would have three spots.

I would be really curious if we could get a definitive interpretation.

Just for S&G most ski pods Dolphin , phoenix and EVO could be construed as having 4 legs which culminate into 2 feet the lower leg and upper leg of each side meeting at a foot.

have fun
Trevor

 

[Taildrag15X]

Trevor60

I hope you read all of my post, that is how it was explained to me by the NRA, they quoted the Rule and made the decision and I passed on the news.

I'd like to Bi Pods have to have folding legs like the Harris I use......

 

[Trevor60]

i read it and appreciate your input.

i to like folding legs but i use an LRaccuracy bipod with phoenix tactical claw feet

best regards
Trevor

 

[Taildrag15X]

Back to the OP question regarding the board size.....since I had just reread
Section 3 Equipment and Ammunition I see the where you can get confusion about this board size....see rule 3.4.1(b)2 - Rifle Rests - The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear rests. In the case of a bipod, the board may not exceed the width of 24” nor depth of 12” and thickness of 1/2”.

This is the Rule that I followed when I ran H. P. Registered Tournaments.

 

[MDLUCKY]

Back to the OP question regarding the board size.....since I had just reread
Section 3 Equipment and Ammunition I see the where you can get confusion about this board size....see rule 3.4.1(b)2 - Rifle Rests - The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear rests. In the case of a bipod, the board may not exceed the width of 24” nor depth of 12” and thickness of 1/2”.

This is the Rule that I followed when I ran H. P. Registered Tournaments.

What I find interesting is that the sentence "In the case of a bipod, the board may not exceed the width of 24” nor depth of 12” and thickness of 1/2" " is italicized in the rule book on page 15 (PDF):

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf

My interpretation would be that the 2" requirement is for F-Open rests, and F-TR would follow the second sentence "in the case of a bipod" which is a separate requirement from the "individual rests" requirements.

But under F-TR specific rules, we go back to square one:

"The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear rests. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2”, nor be more than 12” front to rear.

See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).

No leveling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top and bottom.
This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not be construed as such.

Disabled competitors may apply to the NRA Protest Committee for appropriate dispensation.

The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device"

Page 73 (PDF)

So on page 73 under F-TR Rest Rules, we are told it cannot exceed the 2". It also says to see Rule 3.4.1 - which has the specific dimensions.


Not that my opinion has any more validity than anyone else - but here is how I interpret the rule (and will likely continue to interpret until we hear from the NRA).

The maximum dimension allowed for a board is 24x12x1/2" in F-TR. There is no mention of "at firing point" or anything similar - just a limit (like the weight limit - you can go UP TO the limit but don't have to). If you bipod is capable of getting to 22" wide (or wider), you can use the full limit of 24". You are restricted to no wider than 2" from the widest point OR 24": whichever is greater. An upper limit is in place, but anything below that limit is acceptable so long as the board does not exceed 2" wider than the widest point of the bipod.

Sure hope to hear from the NRA.

 

[XTR]

What I find interesting is that the sentence "In the case of a bipod, the board may not exceed the width of 24” nor depth of 12” and thickness of 1/2" " is italicized in the rule book on page 15 (PDF):

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf

Ugg.. Silly me, I'd never looked in that section. That italicized text is what was added last yr. I thought it was to be added to section 19 in the F class regs.

I think it's a little more clear, but I'm hoping for a response.

 

[Immike]

Why not use 2 separate pads? We have a guy using a couple phone books and does well with it,especially on loose gravel. Doesn't this eliminate the board width problem? Seb's pod pad is another solution.

 

[Dos XX]

So, if there is a rug or some other type covering on the board, is it included in the 1/2" thick dimension?

 

[Taildrag15X]

So, if there is a rug or some other type covering on the board, is it included in the 1/2" thick dimension?

If it's attached (glued, stapled, screwed) to the board I would say yes,......if it's a piece of heavy carpet/door mat with some pieces of board under it to help level it then I would think thickness would not come into play for the board.

Seb's pad is not a board and is thicker, phone books (unless from the rural areas) as mentioned, steel plates, aluminum plates, delrin.......

 

[XTR]

Here is the response Dennis Willing (NRA) on boards, at least at the upcoming matches at Camp Perry:

Wade,

Discussions were had here at Camp Perry with the Match Director and Chief Referee and the following decision was made.

NRA Rule 3.4.1, in its entirety, will be waived. It will be replaced with ICFRA rules F2.14 through F2.21.

This is being done to provide consistency with F-Class competitors from Mid Range through Fullbore.

ICFRA rules are much more liberal and the size of the board will not be an issue.

The Match Director's Bulletin that will order this change is currently being constructed. I will provide the exact wording once the Match Director has published the bulletin.

I hope this helps with your preparations for Camp Perry.

Denny

 

[XTR]

It looks like the ICFRA rules haven't been changed since 2009 from the link on the IFCRA home page. (if someone's search-fu is better than mine and there is a more recent version pls link it.

IFCRA F Class Rules

Pertinent excerpts:



F2.16. The F/TR rifle bipod and rear bag may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to its point of aim for the previous shot. The rifle, bipod or rear rest may, however, incorporate an integral mechanism for raising and lowering either the butt or fore-end provided that it does not contravene rule F2.3. above.

F2.17. No portion of the rifle’s butt or pistol grip will rest on the ground or on any hard surface. Any rear rest employed will not be attached, clamped or held onto the rifle in any way.

F2.18. The contents of front and rear bags will be a dry, finely (< 5mm) divided substance such as, but not limited to sand, gravel, or grain, packed loosely enough so that the bag will be visibly deformable by pressure of the range officer’s fingers.

F2.19. Any number and type of object(s) (of any material) may be placed beneath each rest to compensate for variations in the height, slope or surface of the firing point, also beneath and around any rear sandbag or beanbag to reduce its rolling, but such objects may not touch the rifle fore-end or butt.

F2.20. The F/O rest(s) or base(s) for each front rest may have up to three “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation to the firing point.

F2.20.1. The F/TR bipod may have up to two “feet”. Each such “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”) provided this causes no significant permanent harm or indentation to the firing point. A “ski” facilitating free recoil is also permitted.

 

[DE-F-Open]

Wade,

Thanks for posting the message from Dennis Willing concerning the use of ICFRA Rules pertaining to F-Class Rests/Bipods, etc., at Camp Perry this year.

Attached as a pdf file please find a copy of the Match Director's Bulletin making this change official.

Hope everyone finds this attachment to be helpful.

Hope to see you next week at Perry

DE-F-Open

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

So, I'm guessing that 2.19 is the answer to the board size and thickness and so on.

I trust this will be in effect at the Nationals this year.

And by the way. Wade, good job. Thanks a bunch.

 

[Steve Blair]

Along the same line as Denys: Does this now apply in all F-Class matches?

 

[effendude]

A match director has the authority to do this? Really? Who knew? ;D

After all the drama and implied accusations by some members of this forum regarding match directors and their interpretation of a poorly written rule, this simple resolution comes along. Maybe the NRA will wake up and make the change now.
Scott

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I'm taking the position that it is now in effect for all F class matches. I just need to get a 76mmX76mm template ready for the F-Openers.

(Where is that devil emoticon?)

 

[skibar_tx]

Effendude, nowhere did it say in those recent postings that a match director had the power to alter the rules in any form or fashion. Boy howdy, you just read anything and skew it 180 degrees. Geez.

 

[MDLUCKY]

So, I'm guessing that 2.19 is the answer to the board size and thickness and so on.

I trust this will be in effect at the Nationals this year.

And by the way. Wade, good job. Thanks a bunch.

X2!

Thank you VERY much!

This makes it far easier to understand the rule. I’m sure there are folks out there who will complain it allows too much – but I think it is a great way to level the playing field, and fits more with the “up to __ max” FTR rules.