Rule Question - FTR

[Baka]

Scott my friend, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you’re doing it all wrong.

When I became match director at our club, I initiated what some people now call, a reign of terror. I instituted policies specifically designed to turn people away and make long time shooters quit, in droves. I read the rule book cover to cover, back and forth and I keep it with me at all times so that when I confront someone about a “rule infraction,” I can quote chapter and verse while I berate him in front of everyone. Just to teach him some good humility.

I make it a point of pride to harass at least one shooter per match. I am also quite proud of the time that Saturday in mid-February when I actually got on not one, not two, but three shooters’ cases. I was on fire that day and two of them have never returned while the third one finally dared to show up last Saturday. I can tell you he was very quiet and shy. I didn’t hear a peep out of him the whole day.

The thing I enjoy most however, is dealing with newbies. I set them straight right away, showing them they are clearly not wanted because they just represent more work for me. So the first thing I do is inspect their equipment VERY closely and if there’s anything, anything at all that I don’t like or don’t approve of, they’re outta here. We have guys that come to “try out” with the equipment they have; some type of .308 rifle, a Caldwell bipod, an NCStar scope, a piece of carpet to lie on and some store-bought bullets. Really? I turn them away, telling them to come back only when they have much better $$$ equipment, but I make sure to do that in front of everyone. I like it this way, the last thing I need is more shooters at the club.

If by some chance I do let some newbie shoot, I make sure that he gets the worse best experience possible. The remaining shooters we have know better than to talk to the new guys and help them in any way. If the newbie dares to ask questions they all send him to me or Klaus for answers. Klaus knows how to treat newbies. So much so that after they finish talking with him, they are so hopelessly confused they have no clue what to do and how to improve. Klaus is also very good acting (and I do mean acting) as scorer for a new shooter. He usually manages to get the newbie to shoot a round during prep time because he knows how I enjoy delicately explaining the infraction to the new shooter. (I think he does it just to see which new insult I come up with; he likes to grow his vocabulary of insults.) His best one this year was when he convinced a newbie that he didn’t need to put in the ECI before removing the rifle from the line. How Klaus timed it so that it occurred just as I was walking by flicking my riding crop and adjusting my monocle, I’ll never know.

It was a great time; the newbie actually soiled his pants. That episode still brings a tear to my eye just remembering it. It was epic.

If I do let a newbie shoot, I make sure he’s next to Adolph in the pits. Adolph knows how I want the newbie to be “instructed” in target pulling. I’ve not seen Adolph in action for the last few years as we’re never in the pits at the same time, but I can hear him on the line a thousand yards away explaining to the newbie the error of his ways. When these newbies come back from the pits, they are usually shaking and babbling uncontrollably. Of course, I help them get the full experience back on the line. Hey, nobody asked them to come out and shoot; they came of their own free will.

I’ve simplified the scoring and awards thing at the end of the matches. Who needs classifications anyway? It’s just a pain to keep up with. So I put everyone in the same pile and the same few guys win everything, but I do like to always point out the various pitiful scores adding some color commentary for the gallery. Before I took over, the scores were usually published later in the month or early in the next but now I made that much better, I just publish the winner’s name 3-4 months later. I think I’ve managed to actually send one report in to the NRA in the last three years, but it’s a lot of work and as I said earlier, who needs classifications?

Earlier this year, we had one guy have the audacity to ask if I would consider putting on a wind clinic and match training class sometime this decade. I’m here to tell you that I had a lot of fun explaining in detail why there was no way we wanted to even consider doing something that stupid. I pointed out that would only attract more newbies to the range and we would even have to show them how to score, pull targets, understand the match commands, and explain the way a match works in detail. I further explained that it would take away a lot of the fun we have watching the newbies trip over themselves and then get yelled at by me. “Do you not like the way Adolph puts pressure, instructs the newbies in the pits?” I asked. “Do you not like the way I jump on people’s case when they screw up on the line?” “Do you want to take away our entertainment?” Well, that put an end to that idea.

But all good things come to an end and come 2015, Hermann is taking over as match dictator director. If you think I was too soft on the newbies, you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.

A tad of sarcasm? Very well done.

 

[Warren Dean]

This getting good....

[br]
Aw, man, it's that Dean guy, again.

I was thinking the same thing Steve...... ;D

Don't start with me, Jade....

 

[Down South]

This getting good....

[br]
Aw, man, it's that Dean guy, again.

I was thinking the same thing Steve...... ;D

Don't start with me, Jade....

;D

 

[skibar_tx]

Don't get me wrong, at monthly shoots I don't care about rules. Shoot em up, get new guys involved, have fun. However, if it is a state championship, regional championship, national championship or a registered match where someone might establish a national record, then the FTR rules must be strictly enforced. I can't believe that I am the only one here that subscibes to that concept. Perhaps that is why I can't win a match, I am scoring myself with a pen, not a pencil.

 

[effendude]

Don't get me wrong, at monthly shoots I don't care about rules. Shoot em up, get new guys involved, have fun. However, if it is a state championship, regional championship, national championship or a registered match where someone might establish a national record, then the FTR rules must be strictly enforced. I can't believe that I am the only one here that subscibes to that concept. Perhaps that is why I can't win a match, I am scoring myself with a pen, not a pencil.

I can think of many reasons why you can't win a match. While accusing the members of this forum of cheating has nothing to do with your shooting skills, it does reflect on your character. You just became one of "those" guys to me.
Scott

 

[skibar_tx]

hahahaha I am one of those guys??? hahahahahaha. Yes I am, one with honor and integrity. Not at all like you I hope,,,

 

[Steve Blair]

Don't get me wrong, at monthly shoots I don't care about rules. Shoot em up, get new guys involved, have fun. However, if it is a state championship, regional championship, national championship or a registered match where someone might establish a national record, then the FTR rules must be strictly enforced. I can't believe that I am the only one here that subscibes to that concept. Perhaps that is why I can't win a match, I am scoring myself with a pen, not a pencil.

I can think of many reasons why you can't win a match. While accusing the members of this forum of cheating has nothing to do with your shooting skills, it does reflect on your character. You just became one of "those" guys to me.
Scott

[br]
;D

 

[skibar_tx]

Oh, by the way. I did not call anyone a cheater. You freely admitted that you would cheat if you did not agree with a rule and you would let anyone cheat the system at your matches, particularly when you did not approve of the rule. You called yourself a cheater.

 

[skibar_tx]

and for once, I agree with you

 

[ptd]

I have a question regarding rules, I've seen the question come up before and I've seen folks argue/interpret it either way but perhaps someone here can clarify - are single point spikes legal on a bipod?

Actually for that matter why would multi point "claws" be any different? Still two legs, just a little more surface area? Still less surface area than skis...

I only ask as I had someone question me on it recently and looking at the rules and threads I googled up from here it seems that they are legal but some folks still question it...

-pd

 

[nosualc]

So, would you disqualify this F T/R shooter if he raised his bipod?

-nosualc

skibar_tx,

Answer this question for me if you could. Would you consider this shooter in violation of the aforementioned F T/R rule if he raised his bipod to the point where his board was more than 2" wider than his bipod feet?

Maybe he never raised his bipod? Maybe he switched to successively narrow boards if he did so? I think both are unlikely.

Not that it matters, but this is a picture of one of the very best shooters in the country, shooting against similarly talented shooters, at a very prestigious match.

Apparently he doesn't agree with your pedantic interpretation of the rule, nor do his fellow competitors, or the match directors at the match he just won.

Or maybe all the people above just used a little common sense and realize that there's nothing he's doing there that violates the stated intent of the rule: "The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device"

Agreed that the rule in question is stupidly written.

-nosualc

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The rules must apply to everyone, whether they are well-known and respected or just a newbie off the street. Indeed a higher-profile person should make doubly sure that he or she is not contravening any rules.

That said, the 2014 rule about board dimension is vague because it has a dimension with a limitation relative to a piece of equipment that does not have a limitation (except for overall weight.) That is a very bad way to write a rule. Reasonable people can and will differ on interpretation and it is entirely possible that Bryan doesn't even know (or didn't know at the time of the picture,) that the rule had changed in 2014. It is also entirely possible the match directors at that event did not know the rule had changed in 2014. The board depicted in the picture is totally legal for 2013.

I believe Wade has already reached out to the NRA to get an interpretation of the rule, so I suggest we wait for the reply and refrain from invectives until then.

I'm actually glad this issue was brought to light here and we need to get it resolved quickly, surely before the Nationals. The NRA referees at that even may very well have his or her own interpretation and someone may get a nasty surprise.

In my opinion, the 2013 rule was fine. Place an absolute limit on the dimensions and go with that. If someone comes up with a bipod that won't fit within those dimensions, then too bad, so sad; lose the board or get a bipod that fits the legal board.

I don't have that issue as I have always only used a mat. Real F-TR shooters don't use boards.

 

[skibar_tx]

It does not matter what I think. The rules are the rules and should be honored. In the picture, were he to raise his bipod, he would probably quickly be in violation of the rules.

If you ask me whether the rule is outdated and should be addressed to reflect the usage of adjustable bipods? Yes. I don't believe the shooter would be at an advantage having 2" overhang of board. I would prefer to see the rule not mention any length past the bipod and just define the board to be no larger than 12x24x1/2, period.

However, until then, the rules should be honored. I would like to see a new rule in the F-Class section. That a shooter cannot be wearing a railroad cap when shooting F-Class. They might be mistaken as a sling shooter!

 

[ryanjay11]

As his bipod is setup in the photo, he is within the rules. This thread has gotten completely out of hand. Throwing out the term cheater about someone because of his interpretation of a vague rule is out of line.

The one thing that has hopefully come out of this, is possibly enough attention that the rule might be rewritten. I don't use a board, so this doesn't affect me, but I'd prefer to see all rules written clearly enough that they aren't open to interpretation. If we have to discuss the intent behind a rule, then it isn't written well enough.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

A rather snarky reply for post #6, don't cha think?

Lighten up Francis...

-nosualc

I think the above comment is elitist and unwarranted. Judging someone's opinion based on his post count is fraught with cliquishness and ignorance.

You have no clue who skybar_tx is. I know him, I am proud to have him as a friend, and I know him to be an accomplished shooter and F-TR competitor and he can probably hand you your arse at a 1000 yard F-TR competition.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I was just thinking. It looks like I'm going to have to make up stickers to put on these boards after checking they meet whatever specs the rules have.

More stuff to do.

 

[nosualc]

A rather snarky reply for post #6, don't cha think?

Lighten up Francis...

-nosualc

I think the above comment is elitist and unwarranted. Judging someone's opinion based on his post count is fraught with cliquishness and ignorance.

You have no clue who skybar_tx is. I know him, I am proud to have him as a friend, and I know him to be an accomplished shooter and F-TR competitor and he can probably hand you your arse at a 1000 yard F-TR competition.

Your friend comes on a forum and within 10 posts calls a man who has for years tirelessly worked to advance our sport a cheater and otherwise questions his character, because he has a difference in opinion on a vaguely written rule?

I don't care if he shoots like god himself. It was rude, I called him on it, and suggested he relax. I would suggest the same to you.

-nosualc

 

[skibar_tx]

In the first place, I did not call him anything. All I said was that the rules should be followed to the letter. There is absolutely no vagueness in this particular rule. Apparently there is a lot of vagueness when the rules don't say what you want to hear.

Do you think that the makers of the adjustable bipods disclosed that if a shooter used a board that their bipod might not be the best choice? No. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this case, this bipod makes adjusting it in preparation of shooting very easy. The downside, the distance between the legs vary and will be difficult to use with a board. Duh!

In the second place, If a match director saw a infraction of the rules, a rule that he didn't believe to be just, should he act on it or what? If he decided to not act on it then the match is not a NRA registered match. It is EFFENDUDE's pissing contest. The match director is, when directing a match such as the Minnesota F-Class and Prone Regional Championship (especially when there are pending national records), the only person there representing the NRA and the NRA is relying on him to follow the letter of the rules. Period! Otherwise, national records don't mean anything.

Yes, you might call me rude, or opinionated or whatever. If a person shoots a match he should be following the rules, and a match director should be following the rules also. If you don't like the rules, work on getting them changed. Oh by the way, I am a butthole too. An opinionated, rude butthole! Everybody that knows me will attest to that. And if I see someone fixing to break the rules or actually break the rules, I will sidle up to them real close and whisper in their ear that he/she really needs to fix that before they shoot, so they will be legal. They really appreciate that, because they are usually newbies and just really don't know.

Luckily, the clubs where I shoot have great match directors, who do follow the rules. They will all let new folks know when they see something that is outside the rules, they are mentors. They are my heroes.

 

[effendude]

How did this become my pissing contest? I didn't accuse anyone of cheating, disregarding NRA rules, scoring in pencil, wearing a railroad cap or any other ridiculous action. Ask my firends, I don't tolerate fools well.

First off, I think we all (but you) can agree that the rule is poorly written and needs to be made clear. The poorly written rule is open to interpretation by match directors which by default opens it up to interpretation be every shooter who might or might not have the best intentions of honoring the spirit of the rule as it was intended.

Each match director has the job of interpreting such vague rules as part of his or her highly paid position. At important matches, there is also a referee assigned by the NRA or a jury of three experienced shooters to assist with rule interpretation. My interpretation, as I stated from the beginning of this thread, was that if the board met the dimension requirements of the bipod when the legs were fully extended, then the competitor was in compliance of the rule. Other match directors may interpret the rule differently as is their right until the rule becomes more clearly written. Shooters who use a board take their chances in how a match director will interpret this poorly written rule. Competitors have no control over the particulars of the firing points they are assigned. some ranges are level, some point up, some down, some are not smooth. That is why they bring the board.

Ski, from the beginning of this thread, you made yourself out to be a victim. Your example was if you were being beat by someone with a board of dimensions exceeding your interpretation of the rule, you would run to the match director to have the shooter DQ'ed. Reread your statement.

You accused all who have beat you of cheating by making the statement that you score in pen and others score in pencil. You also accused me and any match director who didn't follow your interpretation of the vague rule of diregarding the rules and allowing cheating. Reread your statements.

Now you make the implication that the national records shot at the last match I directed might be invalid. There were 46 shooters at the match when the records were set. There was a 3 man jury comprised of highmaster shooters of all three disciplines. All NRA rules were followed exactly as written. If you have an accustion, back it up with facts. Otherwise, shut the bleep up. You are disrespecting every shooter at the match.

This forum used to be where we could respectfully share opinions, information and help each other. It didn't matter if we disagreed, we almost always kept the comments respectful. I don't need the drama of fools complicating my busy life. I will continue to support the site through contributions but I am done arguing.

Scott

 

[XTR]

Dennis responded to my email Tuesday,

• Thanks Wade. I'll talk to the Chief Referee about his interpretation of what's legal. His opinion is the only one that counts.

He also commented that he would have the HP rules committee look at it.

Until we get an answer from the NRA you guys should put away the rulers.


Once upon a time I was involved in an actual pissing contest. See who could piss the highest on the wall in the back of the bar in PI (submariners can be that way). Some of us thought we were doing pretty well till one guy pissed on the ceiling. Then we all went back and drank more beer.