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Rule Question - FTR

skibar_tx said:
Hey EFFENDUDE, so you are telling me that if someone offered a formal complaint about another individual in the match not complying with the rules, that you wouldn't act on it? Interesting. May I assumme that you do not hold registered NRA matches.

Secondly, are you saying that as a match director you can make the decisions on which rules you want to follow and you would have no problem disregarding a standing rule if you did not personally agree with it?

If I come to one of your matches, can I shoot my 7mm in FTR? I won't use a board, I promise.....
This is why I seldom make posts anymore on this forum. I politely gave my interpretation of the rule, as it is written and published on the NRA website. Now I am accused of disregarding all standing rules? I have neither the time nor the patience to partake in this type of discussion, but here goes. I just finished directing a two day registered match with 46 shooters. I took three days off work before the match to make sure all preparations were complete. I did not shoot, even though I would have rather shot than be the match director. I was paid ZERO for all my efforts. The same thing will happen in a couple months at our state championship.

As the guy whose name is on all the paperwork for a match, it is my responsibility, along with the formal jury at registered matches, to act on formal rule complaints and disputes. When a rule is poorly written, it is open to interpretation by the match officials. They have the final say at a match.

As match director, I would certainly act on a formal complaint of someone not following or complying with any rule. But if you came to me and made me aware of someone having a board more than 2" wider than his bipod feet when the feet were not at their widest, but the board met the definition of the rules (however poorly written currently) when fully extended, I would allow the board under the rules as written. Again, I am not going to go up and down the line measuring boards as shooters adjust their elevation wheels to ensure compliance.

If you made this complaint because you were losing to the other shooter, you would quickly earn the reputation with me and all the shooters that you are one of "those" guys. "Those" guys are usually very lonely, even at big matches. Competitors who cheat, although I have only met a few, get very lonely at matches too. My match bulletins state I reserve the right to refuse any entry for exactly for such situations. I have not excercised that right yet, but I reserve the right.

For discussion purposes, I would allow you to shoot your 7mm F-TR style, you simply would be in F-Open class.

As competitors, we often see new shooters making unintentional violations of some of the rules written for formal competition. I alway take a minute to politely advise the shooter of his/her violation as up to this point in 8 years of running F-Class matches, the violations have always been minor. I never allow a safety rule to be ignored. No brakes or feeding from a mag are ever allowed. All shooters should do the same. There is a huge difference in welcoming and mentoring a newbie rather than screaming foul. Hooking bipod legs under the web straps on the front of a matt, board width, and one piece rests are all good examples of what I consider minor violations that justify a polite discussion. I often jokingly tell the shooter that if they win the match or set a state or national record, their score won't be allowed. They are always thankful for the advice.

At matches up to the registered level, what harm is done in allowing a less experienced shooter to gain experience at a match, even if a piece of their equipment doesn't meet the specific rules not related to safety? These new shooters don't win. Match winners win regardless of what their fellow shooters use.

Scott
 
bayou shooter said:
And this year:
In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2”, nor be more than 12” front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).

And 3.4.1(a)(1): (1) No more than two rests may be used. If two rests are employed, they may not be attached to each other.

This would mean to me that you cannot have two boards, or if you do, you cannot have a rear bag.

I don't have a dog in this fight as i use claw feet on my LRaccuracy bipod ;D ;D
however i would like to clarify your interpretation of rule 3.4.1(a)(1)

two rests would be a front rest and a rear rest; no more then 2 rest could be used. but can not be attached

so you can have this
images


but you can not have this
1000lp01.jpg



As to the number of boards (loose term) there is no limit to how many you can use to get the desired height (configuration) as the rule stipulates as long as you are within the dimensions, and the DCRA and ICFRA do not list any such rule for either class.
Thanks
Trevor
 
Effendude, I would be a newbie at any sanctioned match. I like the way you think. A hobby is supposed to be fun. I would not intentionally break a rule, but being new, I sure might unintentionally mess up. I would guess that your matches would be a good place to learn. Thanks for you efforts and reasonable approach to the game. It really is just a game.
 
effendude said:
skibar_tx said:
Hey EFFENDUDE, so you are telling me that if someone offered a formal complaint about another individual in the match not complying with the rules, that you wouldn't act on it? Interesting. May I assumme that you do not hold registered NRA matches.

Secondly, are you saying that as a match director you can make the decisions on which rules you want to follow and you would have no problem disregarding a standing rule if you did not personally agree with it?

If I come to one of your matches, can I shoot my 7mm in FTR? I won't use a board, I promise.....
This is why I seldom make posts anymore on this forum. I politely gave my interpretation of the rule, as it is written and published on the NRA website. Now I am accused of disregarding all standing rules? I have neither the time nor the patience to partake in this type of discussion, but here goes. I just finished directing a two day registered match with 46 shooters. I took three days off work before the match to make sure all preparations were complete. I did not shoot, even though I would have rather shot than be the match director. I was paid ZERO for all my efforts. The same thing will happen in a couple months at our state championship.

As the guy whose name is on all the paperwork for a match, it is my responsibility, along with the formal jury at registered matches, to act on formal rule complaints and disputes. When a rule is poorly written, it is open to interpretation by the match officials. They have the final say at a match.

As match director, I would certainly act on a formal complaint of someone not following or complying with any rule. But if you came to me and made me aware of someone having a board more than 2" wider than his bipod feet when the feet were not at their widest, but the board met the definition of the rules (however poorly written currently) when fully extended, I would allow the board under the rules as written. Again, I am not going to go up and down the line measuring boards as shooters adjust their elevation wheels to ensure compliance.

If you made this complaint because you were losing to the other shooter, you would quickly earn the reputation with me and all the shooters that you are one of "those" guys. "Those" guys are usually very lonely, even at big matches. Competitors who cheat, although I have only met a few, get very lonely at matches too. My match bulletins state I reserve the right to refuse any entry for exactly for such situations. I have not excercised that right yet, but I reserve the right.

For discussion purposes, I would allow you to shoot your 7mm F-TR style, you simply would be in F-Open class.

As competitors, we often see new shooters making unintentional violations of some of the rules written for formal competition. I alway take a minute to politely advise the shooter of his/her violation as up to this point in 8 years of running F-Class matches, the violations have always been minor. I never allow a safety rule to be ignored. No brakes or feeding from a mag are ever allowed. All shooters should do the same. There is a huge difference in welcoming and mentoring a newbie rather than screaming foul. Hooking bipod legs under the web straps on the front of a matt, board width, and one piece rests are all good examples of what I consider minor violations that justify a polite discussion. I often jokingly tell the shooter that if they win the match or set a state or national record, their score won't be allowed. They are always thankful for the advice.

At matches up to the registered level, what harm is done in allowing a less experienced shooter to gain experience at a match, even if a piece of their equipment doesn't meet the specific rules not related to safety? These new shooters don't win. Match winners win regardless of what their fellow shooters use.

Scott

Great post.
 
skibar_tx said:
Hey EFFENDUDE, so you are telling me that if someone offered a formal complaint about another individual in the match not complying with the rules, that you wouldn't act on it? Interesting. May I assumme that you do not hold registered NRA matches.

Secondly, are you saying that as a match director you can make the decisions on which rules you want to follow and you would have no problem disregarding a standing rule if you did not personally agree with it?

If I come to one of your matches, can I shoot my 7mm in FTR? I won't use a board, I promise.....

A rather snarky reply for post #6, don't cha think?

Lighten up Francis...

-nosualc
 
painless2 said:
Does everyone think a joy- stick bi pod should be allowed in FTR? Why not a Farley
Front rest?
Tom

1) Heck yes! It helps move the performance level ever higher. Some folks said the same thing when the Sinclair bipod came out.

2) Because it is F-T/R not F-Open or F-Standard. Duh! ::)
 
Haven't read all posts on this tread, but the gist of it immediately brings to mind something I witnessed at the Nationals. Most F-Open shooters in the US clamp their forend to a 20ish lb front rest that no way could be lifted out without lifting rest with it!! I believe the rule reads that rifle should lift out without lifting rest. Never seen anyone check thatone ;)
 
shockman said:
Haven't read all posts on this tread, but the gist of it immediately brings to mind something I witnessed at the Nationals. Most F-Open shooters in the US clamp their forend to a 20ish lb front rest that no way could be lifted out without lifting rest with it!! I believe the rule reads that rifle should lift out without lifting rest. Never seen anyone check thatone ;)
[br]
I've seen it tested at several large events and I test my rest every time I leave the line.
 
bayou shooter said:
Well, as an HM F-TR shooter and also a match director, I would disqualify someone who had a board under his bipod that would be greater than 2 inches at whatever bipod setting he or she is using, because that person is contravening the spirit of the rule.

The reason for the rule is to prevent people from coming to the line with a big old board to take out all the vagaries of the terrain and in effect using a table, albeit with very short legs.

So the rule was made such that whatever board you use would not give you an unfair advantage versus the other competitors. By specifying the acceptable measurements, the NRA, in my opinion, allowed for bipods of different sizes to have the same "relief" with a board and no more so that the board would not be used as a table but would be proportional to the bipod.

In my opinion, the board should be measured according to the width of the bipod as it is being used at the time of firing.

This is exactly the same as making weight. Your rifle has to be 8.25kg or less as you fire it. If you pass the weight check by removing all sorts of doodads on the rifle, these doodads are not allowed to be put back on the rifle after the weight check. I have heard of people getting into trouble placing stuff on their rifles after the weight check and thus exceeding the limit.

As a competitor, I am not worried about other people's equipment because I rely on the match directors and officials to enforce the rules.

+1
 
gstaylorg said:
Personally...yes. If everyone was limited to using only a Harris bipod and 155 gr bullets, I would have absolutely nothing on which to blame my appalling and personally traumatic lack of success in F-TR. As it is now, I can always say, "Well of course so and so scored better than I did...he was using one of those fancy bipods with the joystick", thereby allowing me to sleep a little better at night ;D.

;D
 
Scott my friend, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you’re doing it all wrong.

When I became match director at our club, I initiated what some people now call, a reign of terror. I instituted policies specifically designed to turn people away and make long time shooters quit, in droves. I read the rule book cover to cover, back and forth and I keep it with me at all times so that when I confront someone about a “rule infraction,” I can quote chapter and verse while I berate him in front of everyone. Just to teach him some good humility.

I make it a point of pride to harass at least one shooter per match. I am also quite proud of the time that Saturday in mid-February when I actually got on not one, not two, but three shooters’ cases. I was on fire that day and two of them have never returned while the third one finally dared to show up last Saturday. I can tell you he was very quiet and shy. I didn’t hear a peep out of him the whole day.

The thing I enjoy most however, is dealing with newbies. I set them straight right away, showing them they are clearly not wanted because they just represent more work for me. So the first thing I do is inspect their equipment VERY closely and if there’s anything, anything at all that I don’t like or don’t approve of, they’re outta here. We have guys that come to “try out” with the equipment they have; some type of .308 rifle, a Caldwell bipod, an NCStar scope, a piece of carpet to lie on and some store-bought bullets. Really? I turn them away, telling them to come back only when they have much better $$$ equipment, but I make sure to do that in front of everyone. I like it this way, the last thing I need is more shooters at the club.

If by some chance I do let some newbie shoot, I make sure that he gets the worse best experience possible. The remaining shooters we have know better than to talk to the new guys and help them in any way. If the newbie dares to ask questions they all send him to me or Klaus for answers. Klaus knows how to treat newbies. So much so that after they finish talking with him, they are so hopelessly confused they have no clue what to do and how to improve. Klaus is also very good acting (and I do mean acting) as scorer for a new shooter. He usually manages to get the newbie to shoot a round during prep time because he knows how I enjoy delicately explaining the infraction to the new shooter. (I think he does it just to see which new insult I come up with; he likes to grow his vocabulary of insults.) His best one this year was when he convinced a newbie that he didn’t need to put in the ECI before removing the rifle from the line. How Klaus timed it so that it occurred just as I was walking by flicking my riding crop and adjusting my monocle, I’ll never know.

It was a great time; the newbie actually soiled his pants. That episode still brings a tear to my eye just remembering it. It was epic.

If I do let a newbie shoot, I make sure he’s next to Adolph in the pits. Adolph knows how I want the newbie to be “instructed” in target pulling. I’ve not seen Adolph in action for the last few years as we’re never in the pits at the same time, but I can hear him on the line a thousand yards away explaining to the newbie the error of his ways. When these newbies come back from the pits, they are usually shaking and babbling uncontrollably. Of course, I help them get the full experience back on the line. Hey, nobody asked them to come out and shoot; they came of their own free will.

I’ve simplified the scoring and awards thing at the end of the matches. Who needs classifications anyway? It’s just a pain to keep up with. So I put everyone in the same pile and the same few guys win everything, but I do like to always point out the various pitiful scores adding some color commentary for the gallery. Before I took over, the scores were usually published later in the month or early in the next but now I made that much better, I just publish the winner’s name 3-4 months later. I think I’ve managed to actually send one report in to the NRA in the last three years, but it’s a lot of work and as I said earlier, who needs classifications?

Earlier this year, we had one guy have the audacity to ask if I would consider putting on a wind clinic and match training class sometime this decade. I’m here to tell you that I had a lot of fun explaining in detail why there was no way we wanted to even consider doing something that stupid. I pointed out that would only attract more newbies to the range and we would even have to show them how to score, pull targets, understand the match commands, and explain the way a match works in detail. I further explained that it would take away a lot of the fun we have watching the newbies trip over themselves and then get yelled at by me. “Do you not like the way Adolph puts pressure, instructs the newbies in the pits?” I asked. “Do you not like the way I jump on people’s case when they screw up on the line?” “Do you want to take away our entertainment?” Well, that put an end to that idea.

But all good things come to an end and come 2015, Hermann is taking over as match dictator director. If you think I was too soft on the newbies, you ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.

:)
 
Trevor60 said:
bayou shooter said:
And this year:
In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2”, nor be more than 12” front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).

And 3.4.1(a)(1): (1) No more than two rests may be used. If two rests are employed, they may not be attached to each other.

This would mean to me that you cannot have two boards, or if you do, you cannot have a rear bag.

(snip)

As to the number of boards (loose term) there is no limit to how many you can use to get the desired height (configuration) as the rule stipulates as long as you are within the dimensions, and the DCRA and ICFRA do not list any such rule for either class.
Thanks
Trevor

Trev, by two boards I meant one under each leg of a bipod, not two boards one on top of the other.
 
This thread does expose a defect in the 2014 rules. I would say that in order to eliminate doubt about variable width bipods, the rule could be amended to say something like "2 inches at the widest deployable width of the bipod." Or some such thing. But as it stands now, it is controversial.
 

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