CatShooter
Steve Blair said:[br]CatShooter said:
Maybe he knows an adverb from a preposition.[br]
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/too_to.htm [br]
And another relevant comment...
This is such an exciting thread.
New induction brass annealer from Giraud
- Thread starter zipollini
- Start date
- Status
And another relevant comment...
This is such an exciting thread.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Adding vitriol and bluster to an argument does not increase its validity.
While I enjoy the show, I believe the vast majority opinion (there's that word again), is that over-annealing is a real concern. Even if over annealing is not a concern in the eyes of some, I still don't see that there's a valid reason to go there; getting it hot enough for the minimal amount of time does the job.
I personally anneal (with a machine) my match cases after every shot. I use Tempilaq as a way to see how much heat and how far down the heat conducts, varying time under the flame. This has worked very well for me. Cat, if you want to do it your way, have at it. I'm glad it's working for you.
-nosualc
While I enjoy the show, I believe the vast majority opinion (there's that word again), is that over-annealing is a real concern. Even if over annealing is not a concern in the eyes of some, I still don't see that there's a valid reason to go there; getting it hot enough for the minimal amount of time does the job.
I personally anneal (with a machine) my match cases after every shot. I use Tempilaq as a way to see how much heat and how far down the heat conducts, varying time under the flame. This has worked very well for me. Cat, if you want to do it your way, have at it. I'm glad it's working for you.
-nosualc
dixieppc
In search of one small hole...
nosualc
You wrote: "I believe the vast majority opinion (there's that word again), is that over-annealing is a real concern."
And there's my quandary. With my limited knowledge of metallurgy, I always thought that you could not over anneal brass necks (soften them too much) but you could cause damage to brass necks by over heating them. Not talking about heat migration to the base, just necks.
Help me here.......
Regards.....
You wrote: "I believe the vast majority opinion (there's that word again), is that over-annealing is a real concern."
And there's my quandary. With my limited knowledge of metallurgy, I always thought that you could not over anneal brass necks (soften them too much) but you could cause damage to brass necks by over heating them. Not talking about heat migration to the base, just necks.
Help me here.......
Regards.....
dcali
Bullet Maker
I'll add two cents. If you look at an annealing temp vs yield strength curve for cartridge brass, you will see that as you increase temperature up to somewhere in the 650ish range, not much happens to yield strength. Then, as you increase the temperature more, you get a dramatic drop in yield strength very quickly. This is the annealing point.
But... after that, as you continue to heat the brass, you get very little additional drop in strength once the major drop has happened.
In other words, it's my opinion that the dangers of over-annealing necks are greatly exaggerated.
But... after that, as you continue to heat the brass, you get very little additional drop in strength once the major drop has happened.
In other words, it's my opinion that the dangers of over-annealing necks are greatly exaggerated.
dixieppc
In search of one small hole...
damoncali
You wrote: "it's my opinion that the dangers of over-annealing necks are greatly exaggerated"
The following graph would seem to support you.
To me, it shows that you are okay as long as you keep the lower body/base below 450deg and that proper annealing starts at ~700deg and above. However, and more interesting, is that it shows that as you move further up in temperature toward 1200deg you're not really getting any more "significant" annealing or softer than you were at 700deg. So, I don't see on this graph at what point your necks become over annealed.
Regards....
You wrote: "it's my opinion that the dangers of over-annealing necks are greatly exaggerated"
The following graph would seem to support you.
To me, it shows that you are okay as long as you keep the lower body/base below 450deg and that proper annealing starts at ~700deg and above. However, and more interesting, is that it shows that as you move further up in temperature toward 1200deg you're not really getting any more "significant" annealing or softer than you were at 700deg. So, I don't see on this graph at what point your necks become over annealed.
Regards....
Dixie,
Unfortunately that graph isn't sufficient to give the complete picture of what's going on. There's two kinds of annealing, recovery and full. What you're referring to is full annealing, which in reloading terminology is being referred to as "over annealing". I'll explain and hopefully it'll make sense.
Recovery annealing is what we're doing by keeping the temps <750. We're providing enough heat to remove the internal strain energy (strain hardening) but keeping the temp low enough the prevent a change to the grain structure. The fine grain structure that's present in the cases when they leave the factory is what gives them the high yield strength with relatively low ductility.
When the cases are heated to sufficiently higher temperatures to cause a substantial change to the grain structure, that's full annealing. That's what you're seeing in the graph with the dramatic increase in ductility along with the steep decline in the strength of the material. That's what people are referring to as "over-annealed". The cases have been heated well beyond the recovery range and are now fully annealed.
In laymans terms, if a person wants the case necks (we all agree case head softening is a bad deal) to be as soft as possible with the least amount of strength then they may not consider fully annealed to be "over-annealed". They'd consider that to be just right. If they want the cases to be less ductile and stronger the way they come from the factory then recovery annealing is what you want. I'll let y'all hash it out as to which process is better. I'm just explaining what's happening with the material.
Unfortunately that graph isn't sufficient to give the complete picture of what's going on. There's two kinds of annealing, recovery and full. What you're referring to is full annealing, which in reloading terminology is being referred to as "over annealing". I'll explain and hopefully it'll make sense.
Recovery annealing is what we're doing by keeping the temps <750. We're providing enough heat to remove the internal strain energy (strain hardening) but keeping the temp low enough the prevent a change to the grain structure. The fine grain structure that's present in the cases when they leave the factory is what gives them the high yield strength with relatively low ductility.
When the cases are heated to sufficiently higher temperatures to cause a substantial change to the grain structure, that's full annealing. That's what you're seeing in the graph with the dramatic increase in ductility along with the steep decline in the strength of the material. That's what people are referring to as "over-annealed". The cases have been heated well beyond the recovery range and are now fully annealed.
In laymans terms, if a person wants the case necks (we all agree case head softening is a bad deal) to be as soft as possible with the least amount of strength then they may not consider fully annealed to be "over-annealed". They'd consider that to be just right. If they want the cases to be less ductile and stronger the way they come from the factory then recovery annealing is what you want. I'll let y'all hash it out as to which process is better. I'm just explaining what's happening with the material.
sparky123321
Silver $$ Contributor
Now that this discussion has turned more informative and less hostile I'd like to address a couple misconceptions about annealing that came up a couple times in prior posts.
1) Annealing is not for many(if not most) about achieving the least possible neck tension by just "Bench Rest Shooters". #4 addresses neck tension further. Most precision shooters I know are more concerned about consistent neck tension from round to round, just as they are about the consistency of all steps in their reloading process.
2) Properly annealing work hardened* brass can increase the life of your brass, decrease split necks and actually make it easier to resize the necks. Work hardened brass tends to spring back more than properly annealed brass after the necks are sized. I can't speak for others, but this(#2) is the primary reason I anneal my brass.
*Guess I should explain how brass becomes work hardened to those that are new to annealing or considering annealing for the first time. When a round is fired most of the case expands until it meets the chamber walls. This expansion varies due to many factors such as initial case dimensions, chamber dimensions, wall thickness, head spacing, internal pressure, etc. In general there is less expansion of the brass towards the base of the case due to increased wall thickness. Resizing your brass brings the brass back to the "approximate" dimensions it was prior to the expansion that occurred when fired. It's this repeated "plastic deformation", stress sufficient enough to permanently deform the metal, that causes the brass to become work hardened.
3) Properly annealed brass is not necessarily anymore or less accurate than a case that was not annealed prior to reloading. Once again, it's really about consistency from round to round and properly annealing brass is just one of many tools/processes to help achieve this consistency. This is especially so, if the cases you are reloading have not all been fired the same amount of times and have been work hardened to different degrees.
4) Personally, and others will feel differently I'm sure, I believe properly(consistent) cleaning the case necks prior to reloading, turning necks to achieve a consistent and desired thickness and selecting the correct size neck bushing have a far greater impact on neck tension than annealing. Actually, properly cleaning the necks addresses consistent adhesion and friction and not really neck tension, but you get my point.
5) Here's the biggie. Over the years I have had what I consider very accurate/consistent rounds(<1/8-1/4 MOA) in numerous calibers that had pretty healthy neck tension and others with barely any neck tension at all. Neck tension is just one of the many, many, many factors that come into play when working up a load for a specific rifle. I have been reloading for going on 40 years now and, honestly, I have been annealing my brass for less than half that time. Even during that time I haven't always annealed my brass. I found I got more into it as I started working with heavier and hotter rounds and as brass became more and more expensive. If annealing can help me get more reloadings out of my VERY expensive brass I feel it's worth the effort.
Have a great day guys!
1) Annealing is not for many(if not most) about achieving the least possible neck tension by just "Bench Rest Shooters". #4 addresses neck tension further. Most precision shooters I know are more concerned about consistent neck tension from round to round, just as they are about the consistency of all steps in their reloading process.
2) Properly annealing work hardened* brass can increase the life of your brass, decrease split necks and actually make it easier to resize the necks. Work hardened brass tends to spring back more than properly annealed brass after the necks are sized. I can't speak for others, but this(#2) is the primary reason I anneal my brass.
*Guess I should explain how brass becomes work hardened to those that are new to annealing or considering annealing for the first time. When a round is fired most of the case expands until it meets the chamber walls. This expansion varies due to many factors such as initial case dimensions, chamber dimensions, wall thickness, head spacing, internal pressure, etc. In general there is less expansion of the brass towards the base of the case due to increased wall thickness. Resizing your brass brings the brass back to the "approximate" dimensions it was prior to the expansion that occurred when fired. It's this repeated "plastic deformation", stress sufficient enough to permanently deform the metal, that causes the brass to become work hardened.
3) Properly annealed brass is not necessarily anymore or less accurate than a case that was not annealed prior to reloading. Once again, it's really about consistency from round to round and properly annealing brass is just one of many tools/processes to help achieve this consistency. This is especially so, if the cases you are reloading have not all been fired the same amount of times and have been work hardened to different degrees.
4) Personally, and others will feel differently I'm sure, I believe properly(consistent) cleaning the case necks prior to reloading, turning necks to achieve a consistent and desired thickness and selecting the correct size neck bushing have a far greater impact on neck tension than annealing. Actually, properly cleaning the necks addresses consistent adhesion and friction and not really neck tension, but you get my point.
5) Here's the biggie. Over the years I have had what I consider very accurate/consistent rounds(<1/8-1/4 MOA) in numerous calibers that had pretty healthy neck tension and others with barely any neck tension at all. Neck tension is just one of the many, many, many factors that come into play when working up a load for a specific rifle. I have been reloading for going on 40 years now and, honestly, I have been annealing my brass for less than half that time. Even during that time I haven't always annealed my brass. I found I got more into it as I started working with heavier and hotter rounds and as brass became more and more expensive. If annealing can help me get more reloadings out of my VERY expensive brass I feel it's worth the effort.
Have a great day guys!
Catshooter, quit telling that same old lie about the FBI. I never claimed to know anyone who loaded FBI sniper ammo in their, or anyone else's, basement. If you can't lie any better than that, you might as well tell the truth. Oh, I forgot you don't know the truth. What's more, you never will.
dcali
Bullet Maker
dixieppc,
Well, I made that graph, so I hope it agrees with me!
I took the chart from the ASTM data on cartridge brass. There are a couple caveats, which is why I left the axes unlabeled. First, the temperatures are for a 1 hour time frame - not the few seconds we typically use. So they're a little low - by how much I don't know. Practice tells us that it's pretty close, however. The important part of the chart is how it levels off after the major drop. There is still a potentially significant reduction in hardness as you continue to increase temperature, so I'm all for consistency. But the idea that everything goes to hell if you overheat by a couple hundred degrees isn't backed up by any data I'm aware of.
Well, I made that graph, so I hope it agrees with me!
I took the chart from the ASTM data on cartridge brass. There are a couple caveats, which is why I left the axes unlabeled. First, the temperatures are for a 1 hour time frame - not the few seconds we typically use. So they're a little low - by how much I don't know. Practice tells us that it's pretty close, however. The important part of the chart is how it levels off after the major drop. There is still a potentially significant reduction in hardness as you continue to increase temperature, so I'm all for consistency. But the idea that everything goes to hell if you overheat by a couple hundred degrees isn't backed up by any data I'm aware of.
sparky123321
Silver $$ Contributor
Seems most agree that overheating of the necks is not the issue per se. However, brass is a great conductor of heat and it's very easy for sufficient heat(time and or max temp) to travel towards and weaken the base area of the case if the necks are over heated(time and or max temp).
If you heated the necks to the higher temperatures shown on your chart it is highly likely you would have achieved a high enough temperature to anneal the lower portions of the case as well, especially on shorter cases.
If you heated the necks to the higher temperatures shown on your chart it is highly likely you would have achieved a high enough temperature to anneal the lower portions of the case as well, especially on shorter cases.
soarky123321, years ago I settled on a few rules when annealing, then I made tools based on the simple rules, that was before I realized there were so many members on reloading forums that are threatened to the point they become dysfunctional by someone that dares to think out loud.
Every annealing thread on every reloading forum I read ends with the same results.
F. Guffey
Every annealing thread on every reloading forum I read ends with the same results.
F. Guffey
sparky123321
Silver $$ Contributor
Hey, as long as no one gets hurt it's all good. We all do things differently and most of the time accomplish the same end result.
I want to thank everyone on the forum for all the knowledge and tips they've kindly shared with me throughout the years. Guess I'm getting to be an old dog(at least older), but I like to think I can still learn new tricks.
I want to thank everyone on the forum for all the knowledge and tips they've kindly shared with me throughout the years. Guess I'm getting to be an old dog(at least older), but I like to think I can still learn new tricks.
There are many that anneal, and probably more that don't. I fall into the latter group, by choice. If my brass survives a number of firings, I have gotten my money out of it. To me, the brass is just another consumable. The day I can see an actual difference on the target that can be attributed to annealing, I might change my mind.
Is anyone worried about grain size growth and the associated (proportional) dislocations and placticity at the higher heats ?
There is a zone between about 725-950 where the tensile curve and the grain growth curve sort of flatten out. Both curves are very steep outside of this zone. As grain growth increases, uniformity decreases and internal stresses increase. I hear what some of you are saying about heating necks to red, but It's just not for me yet.
There is a zone between about 725-950 where the tensile curve and the grain growth curve sort of flatten out. Both curves are very steep outside of this zone. As grain growth increases, uniformity decreases and internal stresses increase. I hear what some of you are saying about heating necks to red, but It's just not for me yet.
dixieppc
In search of one small hole...
I really appreciate all of the people that have contributed to this knowledge base of annealing and I appreciate the information that they have provided. It has helped me tremendously.
Some may think that I am a bit anal in my pursuit of knowledge and understanding covering this topic. But I have never been one to do something without the knowledge as to why I'm doing it and why I'm doing it the way that I'm doing it.
I started shooting point blank benchrest in the late eighties with two 6PPC's. In those days everybody had a hard-on for Molly coating bullets and cryogenicizing(sp) barrels. I think I can count on one hand the people that I knew that were delving into annealing.
But in all honesty maybe annealing didn't play as big a part in that game back then because everyone was and mostly still is shooting tight neck chambers which means you're not working the brass that much. I can't remember of anyone having gauged setups to measure the bullet seating tension from round to round like we do now. You shot your 7 minute relay then ran back to the loading area and tried to get your gun cleaned and ammo reloaded as quickly as you could. If you felt a bullet seat with notably more resistance then the rest then you marked that round for a fouler round for that relay and kept and eye on it for subsequent loadings.
Then at the end of the 1999 season or in 2000, circumstances dictated that I had to stop benchrest and raise two granddaughters, by myself. Man, I can damn well write a book about that. Well, I finally got both granddaughters off to college with grants and scholarships. I'm ready to play again.
This past summer everything came out of storage, was unpacked and a gun/reloading room was set up again after 14 years. Over the Fall and now into the Winter I have worked diligently to re-introduce myself to my two 6PPCs and the game of Point Blank Benchrest. For information, I returned to one of my old haunts, Benchrest Central. It was there that I obtained information about another site called Accurate Shooter. It was here that I obtained the motivation to add another gun and another disciplined to my habit. I had a 17 pound 6BR bench rest rifle build for the medium range (600 yard) game.
Getting back to annealing.......
When getting back into the game this past summer I noted that everyone's love affair with moly coated bullets and barrel cryogenics from the late eighties on into the nineties had been replaced with annealing. So I started studying up on that mainly by reading all of the forum topics on the subject. Talk about getting more confused than I already was!!! But I think I'm coming along real nicely with it. I bought a Giraud and have done some cases that I feel confident are done right.
With the aid of Tempilaq, I make sure that the lower part of the body and head of my case never go above 450 and that my necks are hitting above ~700. The above ~700 is an area I'm still a little confused at but I know that 450 or above is a hard number not to cross for the lower case body and head. I also understand that the quicker you get the necks to ~700, the less likely you are to cross or come near the 450 barrier for the lower body and head.
Now, another observation. Using a bullet seating tension measuring instrument (K&M setup) I have not been finding a lot of bullet seating tension variation when loading my PPCs (Lapua 220 Russian Brass). And what little bit of variations that I am seeing does not seem to be reflecting in group size in point blank benchrest distances, ie. 100 and 200 yards. Doesn't seem to matter if I anneal the cases or not. However the 6BR at 600 yards is a whole nother story.
I'm finding that my Lapua 6BR brass shows more seating tension variation than the Lapua 220 Russian does. One Note: the Lapua 220 Russian brass is being turned to give .002 clearance in a 262 neck while the Lapua 6BR brass is being turned to give a .002 clearance in a 268 neck. In other words the Lapua 6BR necks are ~.0035 thicker than the Lapua 220 Russian necks.
I can only surmise from this that the thicker the neck wall is, the more apt you are to see bullet seating tension variations. Add to this that possibly slight variations in bullet seating tensions are not as noticeable in short Point Blank benchrest distances. Probably the reason why the tight neck PPC crowd wasn't as anal about annealing back in the day as we see with the medium to long range BR crowd is today.
I can state with fact that I see more bullet seating tension variation in my NON-annealed BR brass than I do in my NON-annealed PPC brass and that AFTER annealing I see no benefit in group size at 100 and 200 yards with my PPC brass but do see significant benefit to my group sizes at 300 to 600 yards with my BR brass. Doesn't mean I'm not going to anneal my PPC brass, just in case.
One final note, in all the years that I shot point blank PPC benchrest without annealing before quitting in 2000 I never had a split neck. I would usually shoot my competition brass a whole season before retiring it which would usually entail ~80 firings per piece a season. Of course, now with annealing, my brass will probably last the rest of my life.
I guess if I could sum the whole above tirade up, I could bring it down to four things.... Four things from the skull of someone that may or may not know what the hell they are talking about..... Me!
1. Never let your lower case bodies or heads reach or go above 450 degrees.
2. Make sure your case necks reach 700 or ~above.
3. The quicker you get your necks to 700 degrees or above, the less likely you are to get your lower case bodies and bases over the 450 degree barrier.
4. The thicker that your neck walls are, the more benefit you will get from annealing.... I Think???
Best Regards to Everyone....
Some may think that I am a bit anal in my pursuit of knowledge and understanding covering this topic. But I have never been one to do something without the knowledge as to why I'm doing it and why I'm doing it the way that I'm doing it.
I started shooting point blank benchrest in the late eighties with two 6PPC's. In those days everybody had a hard-on for Molly coating bullets and cryogenicizing(sp) barrels. I think I can count on one hand the people that I knew that were delving into annealing.
But in all honesty maybe annealing didn't play as big a part in that game back then because everyone was and mostly still is shooting tight neck chambers which means you're not working the brass that much. I can't remember of anyone having gauged setups to measure the bullet seating tension from round to round like we do now. You shot your 7 minute relay then ran back to the loading area and tried to get your gun cleaned and ammo reloaded as quickly as you could. If you felt a bullet seat with notably more resistance then the rest then you marked that round for a fouler round for that relay and kept and eye on it for subsequent loadings.
Then at the end of the 1999 season or in 2000, circumstances dictated that I had to stop benchrest and raise two granddaughters, by myself. Man, I can damn well write a book about that. Well, I finally got both granddaughters off to college with grants and scholarships. I'm ready to play again.
This past summer everything came out of storage, was unpacked and a gun/reloading room was set up again after 14 years. Over the Fall and now into the Winter I have worked diligently to re-introduce myself to my two 6PPCs and the game of Point Blank Benchrest. For information, I returned to one of my old haunts, Benchrest Central. It was there that I obtained information about another site called Accurate Shooter. It was here that I obtained the motivation to add another gun and another disciplined to my habit. I had a 17 pound 6BR bench rest rifle build for the medium range (600 yard) game.
Getting back to annealing.......
When getting back into the game this past summer I noted that everyone's love affair with moly coated bullets and barrel cryogenics from the late eighties on into the nineties had been replaced with annealing. So I started studying up on that mainly by reading all of the forum topics on the subject. Talk about getting more confused than I already was!!! But I think I'm coming along real nicely with it. I bought a Giraud and have done some cases that I feel confident are done right.
With the aid of Tempilaq, I make sure that the lower part of the body and head of my case never go above 450 and that my necks are hitting above ~700. The above ~700 is an area I'm still a little confused at but I know that 450 or above is a hard number not to cross for the lower case body and head. I also understand that the quicker you get the necks to ~700, the less likely you are to cross or come near the 450 barrier for the lower body and head.
Now, another observation. Using a bullet seating tension measuring instrument (K&M setup) I have not been finding a lot of bullet seating tension variation when loading my PPCs (Lapua 220 Russian Brass). And what little bit of variations that I am seeing does not seem to be reflecting in group size in point blank benchrest distances, ie. 100 and 200 yards. Doesn't seem to matter if I anneal the cases or not. However the 6BR at 600 yards is a whole nother story.
I'm finding that my Lapua 6BR brass shows more seating tension variation than the Lapua 220 Russian does. One Note: the Lapua 220 Russian brass is being turned to give .002 clearance in a 262 neck while the Lapua 6BR brass is being turned to give a .002 clearance in a 268 neck. In other words the Lapua 6BR necks are ~.0035 thicker than the Lapua 220 Russian necks.
I can only surmise from this that the thicker the neck wall is, the more apt you are to see bullet seating tension variations. Add to this that possibly slight variations in bullet seating tensions are not as noticeable in short Point Blank benchrest distances. Probably the reason why the tight neck PPC crowd wasn't as anal about annealing back in the day as we see with the medium to long range BR crowd is today.
I can state with fact that I see more bullet seating tension variation in my NON-annealed BR brass than I do in my NON-annealed PPC brass and that AFTER annealing I see no benefit in group size at 100 and 200 yards with my PPC brass but do see significant benefit to my group sizes at 300 to 600 yards with my BR brass. Doesn't mean I'm not going to anneal my PPC brass, just in case.
One final note, in all the years that I shot point blank PPC benchrest without annealing before quitting in 2000 I never had a split neck. I would usually shoot my competition brass a whole season before retiring it which would usually entail ~80 firings per piece a season. Of course, now with annealing, my brass will probably last the rest of my life.
I guess if I could sum the whole above tirade up, I could bring it down to four things.... Four things from the skull of someone that may or may not know what the hell they are talking about..... Me!
1. Never let your lower case bodies or heads reach or go above 450 degrees.
2. Make sure your case necks reach 700 or ~above.
3. The quicker you get your necks to 700 degrees or above, the less likely you are to get your lower case bodies and bases over the 450 degree barrier.
4. The thicker that your neck walls are, the more benefit you will get from annealing.... I Think???
Best Regards to Everyone....
dcali
Bullet Maker
I don't know if it 's the thickness of the neck so much as the total plastic strain you put on it in the firing-sizing cycle- in other words, diametrical neck clearance.
My old .30BR with a .001" neck clearance does not even need to be sized after firing. There is no measurable change in the diameter of the necks before and after firing. How long will it go before splitting a neck? Probably forever.
Even my F class gun (a 6XC with about .006-007 clearance) does not suffer from split necks. After a about 10 stout loads, the brass is still going strong, although I don't know how much more it will take as the primers are ever so slightly looser than when it was new.
So I don't anneal for case life. It's just not necessary with a properly spec'd chamber. I don't have enough experience with annealing for long range accuracy to comment, but I'd certainly be interested in exploring that.
My old .30BR with a .001" neck clearance does not even need to be sized after firing. There is no measurable change in the diameter of the necks before and after firing. How long will it go before splitting a neck? Probably forever.
Even my F class gun (a 6XC with about .006-007 clearance) does not suffer from split necks. After a about 10 stout loads, the brass is still going strong, although I don't know how much more it will take as the primers are ever so slightly looser than when it was new.
So I don't anneal for case life. It's just not necessary with a properly spec'd chamber. I don't have enough experience with annealing for long range accuracy to comment, but I'd certainly be interested in exploring that.
This will go forever as you're staying within springback and therefore not working the brass at all. Like you I'm running a fitted neck, and with no neck sizing ever needed my seating forces as measured have not and will not ever change.damoncali said:
For a case like this it's better IMO to never anneal, unless your method is perfect (lead dip). This, because there is no gain in it(only potential to screw it up).
I suspect the big movement towards frequent annealing follows the big movement towards greater clearances(more sizing).
There really are prices for everything.
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