New induction brass annealer from Giraud

[amlevin]

Cases are work hardened on purpose when they are manufactured to provide the strength necessary for the pressures experienced when the round is fired. Work hardening(strength) brass cases is much more important than annealing them to soften the case necks as some manufactures do.

Apparently those who do anneal the case necks find it to be of importance otherwise they'd save the money spent on the process.

Yes, you can work harden brass but not if all the zinc has been "burned out" of he neck area. The issue is about making a case that has little or no neck tension. Once gone from over annealing, no amount of resizing (working) will return the desired neck tension.

Maybe great for a bench rest shooter but a major hassle for those who shoot semi-auto's or use their bolt actions as repeaters.


BTW, it's OUR time. We can do with it as we choose.

 

[CatShooter]

Yes, you can work harden brass but not if all the zinc has been "burned out" of he neck area. The issue is about making a case that has little or no neck tension. Once gone from over annealing, no amount of resizing (working) will return the desired neck tension.

BTW, it's OUR time. We can do with it as we choose.

You cannot burn the zinc out of brass. It is alloyed, therefor it was not burning when it was melted, so it isn't going to burn at the temperatures we use.

You can weld brass with an oxy-acetylene (an acetylene/oxygen flame burns at about 3,500 °C (6,330 °F)...

Where does this stuff come from????

 

[sparky123321]

Here's a quote from http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Over-Annealing and Under-Annealing
When cartridge brass is under-annealed, virtually nothing has changed. If your case necks have become work-hardened, they will remain work-hardened, You will not see any improvement in case life or in accuracy. You will assume (incorrectly) that annealing is a waste of time. (In this case, with under-annealed brass, it is.)

Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.

 

[CatShooter]

Here's a quote from http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Over-Annealing and Under-Annealing
When cartridge brass is under-annealed, virtually nothing has changed. If your case necks have become work-hardened, they will remain work-hardened, You will not see any improvement in case life or in accuracy. You will assume (incorrectly) that annealing is a waste of time. (In this case, with under-annealed brass, it is.)

Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.

Any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous. This area of the brass must retain the properties it had when it left the factory. If it is made the least bit softer, let alone "dead" soft, the stage is set for another shooter's nightmare. At the very least, you may get a whiff of hot gas directed toward your face. At the worst, you can be seriously injured as your gun behaves more like a hand grenade than a firearm.

I once heard a tale of a gentleman who placed his brass on a cookie tray and placed the whole batch in an oven at 650 degrees for over an hour. He wasn't hurt--at least seriously. His attitude toward annealing is very negative.

Cartridge brass which has been annealed over its entire length will exhibit signs of excessive pressure even with moderate and reduced loads. Indeed, cases in this condition are subjected to excessive pressures. Any pressure is excessive. Head separation, incipient head separation, stuck or sticky cases, blown primers, swollen cases, swollen case heads, enlarged primer pockets (I mean REALLY enlarged), and just about every other sign of excessive pressure imaginable can occur with cases which have been annealed over their entire length.

ALWAYS quote something from somewhere else, instead of your own experience (of which you have none).

It would be nice to see something that YOU have done... but, of course, that will never happen!


"Over annealed" cases shot this group...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A response to another fool that I posted before.

Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself. The least is you waste your time and money. Everyone has an opinion but annealing can get to 20-30 re-loads and can increase your scoring based on tender case release or consistent neck tension. I shoot Lapua brass and I'm not wasting any money buying new brass when with care you can be like the Energizer Bunny and keep on going and going - or should I say loading and loading.

"Annealing is a science - not hot enough - it doesn't do a thing. To hot and you destroy the case. Annealing is not for a beginner, the worst would be that you destroy your 2 dollars apiece Norma brass and blind yourself."

Well, I guess everyone should quit annealing then, cuz none of us want to go blind... wait a minute - I remember something about going blind when I was 13, and it never happened.

So this must be BS!!

Annealing is part science and part black magic

I use a $2,500 instrument to test annealing, and annealing is not as critical as some would like you to believe, and is filled with black magic - .

Constant, uniform annealing can be done by hand...

But color can be deceiving - the cases on the right were annealed at the same time as the ones on the left, at the same temperature, for the same duration, but the ones on the left look like Lapua's annealing, the ones on the right have a silverish colour - the difference is that one group was made ~10 years earlier than the other - both are the same make.

The distance that colour travels on the case body can be deceiving... the case shown here would be thrown away by most everyone...

When it was annealed, a strange thing happened. It annealed in the flame normally, and and when dropped on the foil, it looked normal, and it lie there for a few seconds, then the dark "annealing colours" started running up the body to the head, like a fast burning fuse.

But when tested for hardness, the case head hardness had not been changed, and the case was fine to load.

You can see the indentations in the case head of both cases (low and on the right side of the case head - you might have to look hard).

Tested @ 0.0625x100Kg

Unfortunately, Sparkie... you don't even understand this stuff - all you do is find junk and past it without understanding it.

Enjoy the rest of the day...

 

[amamnn]

Duty cycle is the time that the unit can run versus the rest time between uses. My unit wants a two minute rest cycle, so I can anneal cases for two minutes and then I must rest the tool for at least two minutes before the next two minutes of annealing.

The duty cycle recommended by the manufacturer should be used if you want the thing to work right and have a good long useful life. It will not hurt to rest the tool longer that recommended.

 

[CatShooter]

Duty cycle is the time that the unit can run versus the rest time between uses. My unit wants a two minute rest cycle, so I can anneal cases for two minutes and then I must rest the tool for at least two minutes before the next two minutes of annealing.

The duty cycle recommended by the manufacturer should be used if you want the thing to work right and have a good long useful life. It will not hurt to rest the tool longer that recommended.

Does that mean a 50% duty cycle, as in 1.5 seconds on and 1.5 seconds off, continuously, or does it mean 1.5 seconds on and 1.5 seconds off for 2 minutes, and then 2 minutes off?

Is it the power supply that needs to cool, or is it the magnetic core of the coil? If the latter, is water cooling an option, so it can be run continuously in 50% on, 50% off, situation??

 

[jlow]

I long ago recognize that one of the reason why there is never an agreement as to what is the proper anneal is because people on this board wants different things. Some BR shooters apparently want almost zero neck tension because that is how they get the best grouping. Other shooters who wants to make ammo that feed from the mag wants higher tension for obvious reasons. What works for you is best for you.

 

[sparky123321]

Cat are you trying to say that hardness testing via indentation hardness on a thin walled tube means anything or has any real value? That's funny. I'm done.

 

[CatShooter]

Cat are you trying to say that hardness testing via indentation hardness on a thin walled tube means anything or has any real value? That's funny. I'm done.

You were "done" a long time ago...

 

[dixieppc]

[CatShooter's example Photo]

CatShooter
As per your image reposted above, I would have thrown the case on the left away because of not having hard data (hardness test results). I do use Tempilaq but only on the first few cases to get my timing down and then just let the machine (Giraud) do its thing from there. So if a case out of the batch turned up looking like the one on the left in your above example, it would get tossed. Luckily that hasn't happened yet.

Being new to annealing I am just wondering why the case on the left in your example did what it did barring that the flame heat and timing was the same for all cases and all cases were from the same lot.

I have to agree with your statement: "Annealing is part science and part black magic".

Best Regards.....

 

[CatShooter]

[CatShooter's example Photo]

CatShooter
As per your image reposted above, I would have thrown the case on the left away because of not having hard data (hardness test results). I do use Tempilaq but only on the first few cases to get my timing down and then just let the machine (Giraud) do its thing from there. So if a case out of the batch turned up looking like the one on the left in your above example, it would get tossed. Luckily that hasn't happened yet.

Being new to annealing I am just wondering why the case on the left in your example did what it did barring that the flame heat and timing was the same for all cases and all cases were from the same lot.

I have to agree with your statement: "Annealing is part science and part black magic".

Best Regards.....

Dixieppc...

I wish I knew for sure. I have had this happen with two calibres - these (which are R-P .221 FurBalls), and Lapua 6mmBRs.

So, it happened to cases at opposite ends of the quality spectrum, and they do not use the same alloys (% of zinc wise), so it is not alloy related.

I do know this - in both times, some of the cases were polished and washed before annealing, and some of the cases were annealed out of the box.

These were two times that I found myself in the middle of bunches where I bought more (or neck turned more new cases) after I had been shooting some of them.... and I decided to bring all of the cases to the same place (neck hardness wise), so I did them all at once so I could start from "0", cuz I was changing some other things and didn't want to have to worry were the cases were, neck wise.

I don't know which, cuz I was not paying attention to that factor at the time.

The first time was with the Lapua 6mmBRs. I was doing a ton of them, (OK, not a ton, but over 1,000), so I was whipping through the lot. I noticed them as I was working along, and assumed that I did something wrong, like hold the case so the flame went down along the body and into the case holder thingie - and so I threw them away

The second time was with the .221 FurBalls, and I was paying better attention.

Now, here's the weird part (Na na na na Na na na na)... the weird ones annealed normally in the case holder - the color line ended just below the shoulder like the rest of them, and when I dropped them on to the foil, they would sit there for a second, and then this blue/magenta color would start running up the case like a fast growing fungus - it would take about two or three seconds to go from the blue colored line at the shoulder to the head. When I saw this, I knew I needed to take pictures and make case hardness measurements... which were even more surprising

Now, I know this much - there was no additional heat coming from anywhere - I drop hot cases on aluminum foil, which draws heat out, so cooling is faster.

If it was due to the way I do it, then there would be a lot of them, but only ~6 of the over 1,000 Lapua cases did this... and about 30 or the more than 500 .221 FurBall cases did it. And it only happened these two times, and I have been annealing the same way for many many years.

I think it has something to do with the washing and/or polishing, cuz I have never had anything like this when I annealed straight factory cases, either new or fired.

I now keep notes on where I am in the total process when annealing, but it has not happened again since the .221 FurBall pictures.

Next time I get a batch of new cases, I might break them up and see if I can reproduce this...

I will say this about annealed cases, if the heads change color, and you don't know why, and can't measure them, then toss them, cyz it is not worth the risk of shooting a dead soft case head.

 

[LHSmith]

P-L-E-A-S-E describe a "Ruined case", and at what temperature it happens - I hear this all the time, and I heat necks to dark red for 4 to 6 seconds, and have never ruined a case.

Are you just repeating something you heard, or do you actually have knowledge of this?

The problem with your posts is you assume your method is the "ONLY" correct method and everyone else's process is foolhardy...even those that anneal with a machine. I've done it by hand and machine and I want to correct/clarify the info in your posts to what works for me and a few companion Benchrest competitors.
* Heating necks to dark red ( you fail to say in a darkened room or in the light----BIG difference) for 4-6 seconds is too long if your looking to restore original neck tension.
* Posting one small group does necessarily mean that is representative of the annealed quality of your entire lot of cases
* Over annealed necks result in poor to no neck tension. In years past, 20 years ago or so, "fitted necks" were used by a few competitors (and they did win once in a while) but most everyone today uses loads that can be further tuned by changing neck tension. Fitted necks BTW is virtually no neck tension with bullet seated long thus allowing the rifling to seat it. In competition this method can be problematic, and the results have long been proven erratic.
* Many on this board use turned necks ( unlike yours) and your method would exasperate the problem of over-annealling.
* While it can be done by hand, machine annealing is hands down yields the most consistent neck tension....and consistency wins matches.

 

[CatShooter]

The problem with your posts is you assume your method is the "ONLY" correct method and everyone else's process is foolhardy...even those that anneal with a machine. I've done it by hand and machine and I want to correct/clarify the info in your posts to what works for me and a few companion Benchrest competitors.

No, my was is not the only way, but there are many here who have NO experence, who give advice on it (you are not one of theem)

* Heating necks to dark red ( you fail to say in a darkened room or in the light----BIG difference) for 4-6 seconds is too long if your looking to restore original neck tension.

Darkened room - I have no intrest in restoring the original neck hardness.

* Posting one small group does necessarily mean that is representative of the annealed quality of your entire lot of cases

I have others... but more importantly, I have the ability to actually measure my annealing - few here do that.

* Over annealed necks result in poor to no neck tension. In years past, 20 years ago or so, "fitted necks" were used by a few competitors (and they did win once in a while) but most everyone today uses loads that can be further tuned by changing neck tension. Fitted necks BTW is virtually no neck tension with bullet seated long thus allowing the rifling to seat it. In competition this method can be problematic, and the results have long been proven erratic.

I have not ever had cases with no neck tension... so it is not something I worry about.

* Many on this board use turned necks (unlike yours) and your method would exasperate the problem of over-annealling.

My 6mmBR is a 0.262 neck... necks are turned to 0.0083" - you should have asked before making such a wrong assumption.

* While it can be done by hand, machine annealing is hands down yields the most consistent neck tension....and consistency wins matches.

Well, yeah... do what works well for you.

 

[sparky123321]

"I will say this about annealed cases, if the heads change color, and you don't know why, and can't measure them, then toss them, cyz it is not worth the risk of shooting a dead soft case head."

But Cat I though you said cases could never be ruined by overheating(time and temp)?

dixieppc please keep doing what you're doing. You're on the right track. Tempilaq is the way to go, especially if you are new to annealing or working with different brass for the first time. Color means absolutely nothing when attempting to properly anneal brass. It actually is a science. It's called Metallurgy. Only the temperature reached and the duration at that temperature matter.

I'm not quite sure why Cat is so fired-up on this topic. No one said his brass wasn't properly annealed or questioned his shooting ability. Most of us experienced shooters just don't want to see someone new to annealing over heat(once again time and temp) and soften the base of their cases enough to cause a catastrophic failure. No one wants to loose an eye.

 

[fguffey]

I'm not quite sure why Cat is so fired-up on this topic.

I find catshooter is wildly indignant about everything.

F. Guffey

 

[Eddie Harren]

"I find Catshooter highly indignant about..............."

One of his less endearing qualities.

 

[STS]

It's the same reason he's been booted of Predator Masters. It's a breath of fresh air.

 

[CatShooter]

It's the same reason he's been booted of Predator Masters. It's a breath of fresh air.

Actually, that is not true - it was because one of their advertisers was promoting a $450 priming tool that was a bad design. I pointed it out and the advertiser had a hissy fit.

So far, the priming tool is going no where, whereas the tool made by 21st Century is great and their business is growing fast.

I have no obligation to promote junk, and I WILL point out junk and BS when I see it.

It seems some members were glad to see me gone, but 80% were really pizzed and PM lost a lot of it's members because I was gone.

"I will say this about annealed cases, if the heads change color, and you don't know why, and can't measure them, then toss them, cyz it is not worth the risk of shooting a dead soft case head."

But Cat I though you said cases could never be ruined by overheating(time and temp)?

dixieppc please keep doing what you're doing. You're on the right track. Tempilaq is the way to go, especially if you are new to annealing or working with different brass for the first time. Color means absolutely nothing when attempting to properly anneal brass. It actually is a science. It's called Metallurgy. Only the temperature reached and the duration at that temperature matter.

I'm not quite sure why Cat is so fired-up on this topic. No one said his brass wasn't properly annealed or questioned his shooting ability. Most of us experienced shooters just don't want to see someone new to annealing over heat(once again time and temp) and soften the base of their cases enough to cause a catastrophic failure. No one wants to loose an eye."

Sparkey... you have changed your position a bunch of times in this thread and take great joy in using my words out of context - you are like a empty can with rocks - you make noise, but nothing worth listening to.

And Guffy... you never fail to disappoint. Right on time (with nothing).

Ask Ed Harren to tell you about his friend that reloads all the sniper ammo for the FBI... it is a fascinating (and colorful) story! Oh wait - the FBI gets their sniper ammo from ATK. Oh well... it is a great story anyway!

 

[CatShooter]

Again, your opinion was that priming tool was not up to your high standards.

That is not true...

Their claim was a micrometer adjustment to set primer depth... but their reference surface changed constantly, so it was impossible to hold one depth - they are now on their 3rd or 4th redesign... so maybe others saw the poor design too... But I said something.

Maybe you were to dense to understand the conversation.

 

[Steve Blair]

Maybe you were to (sic) dense to understand the conversation.

[br]
Maybe he knows an adverb from a preposition. [br]
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/too_to.htm [br]