New induction brass annealer from Giraud

[zipollini]

New induction annealer from Giraud coming soon.

http://www.giraudtool.com/annealer1.htm

An Annie induction annealer mated with a Giraud annealer

http://www.fluxeon.com/buyflux/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=66

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL4eNCgm-C8

 

[flatlander]

The Annie induction set-up is kinda tantalizing - I run the torch on my Giraud off a 20lb LP bottle, and have to keep an eye on the flame & tweak the valve from time-to-time. The whole idea behind using the annealing machine is to improve neck tension consistency, so the variable flame is kind of a limiting factor in that regard. The induction heating coil would seem to be a big improvement when it comes to consistency. Wonder if there are any service or longevity issues with the electronic induction heating apparatus?

 

[zipollini]

I've sent a message over the the guys that make the BenchSource annealing machine to see if they are interested in using the Annie induction anneler on their unit also. Will be interesting to see where this goes. Bought the BenchSource unit about 6 months ago. Love it but the Annie addition would be great.

 

[amlevin]

Looks great but I'll stick with my "socket and torch" method.

Can't see putting close to $1 K into an anneaing setup. I'd rather start another rifle build with that kind of cash.

 

[CatShooter]

Looks great but I'll stick with my "socket and torch" method.

Can't see putting close to $1 K into an anneaing setup. I'd rather start another rifle build with that kind of cash.

What Amlevin said - I do about 2,000 cases a year, I'm not gonna spend 50 cents a case to anneal brass that costs 50 cents a case

... and if all my deadbeat shooting friends found out thata I had an induction annealing machine, they would arrrive with a 6 pack... and a dump truck of cases

 

[Erik Cortina]

Looks great but I'll stick with my "socket and torch" method.

Can't see putting close to $1 K into an anneaing setup. I'd rather start another rifle build with that kind of cash.

What Amlevin said - I do about 2,000 cases a year, I'm not gonna spend 50 cents a case to anneal brass that costs 50 cents a case

... and if all my deadbeat shooting friends found out thata I had an induction annealing machine, they would arrrive with a 6 pack... and a dump truck of cases

Business 101: Difference between an expense and an investment.

You are confusing the two. It will not cost you $ .50 per case because you don't have to buy another one every year. The unit should last forever, at which point you can still sell it and get most of your money back.

So, let's say you keep it for 10 years, that's 20,000 cases. That's $ .05 per case. If in 10 years you sell the machine, due to inflation, you should get at lease $600 - $800 back, which means it now only cost you about $ .01 - $ .02 each. Now, figure the time you saved in those 10 years annealing brass and you are now way ahead of the game.

As far as all your dead beat buddies, I suggest you get new ones.

 

[CatShooter]

Looks great but I'll stick with my "socket and torch" method.

Can't see putting close to $1 K into an anneaing setup. I'd rather start another rifle build with that kind of cash.

What Amlevin said - I do about 2,000 cases a year, I'm not gonna spend 50 cents a case to anneal brass that costs 50 cents a case

... and if all my deadbeat shooting friends found out thata I had an induction annealing machine, they would arrrive with a 6 pack... and a dump truck of cases

Business 101: Difference between an expense and an investment.

You are confusing the two. It will not cost you $ .50 per case because you don't have to buy another one every year. The unit should last forever, at which point you can still sell it and get most of your money back.

So, let's say you keep it for 10 years, that's 20,000 cases. That's $ .05 per case. If in 10 years you sell the machine, due to inflation, you should get at lease $600 - $800 back, which means it now only cost you about $ .01 - $ .02 each. Now, figure the time you saved in those 10 years annealing brass and you are now way ahead of the game.

As far as all your dead beat buddies, I suggest you get new ones.

If an annealing machine was available, with a case feeder like the Dillon 1050, that would run completely on it's own, only requiring someone to refill the hopper every 10 minutes, and capable of running 8 hours a day, and could be calibre changed without too much problems (10 to 20 minutes), I would do it.

 

[sparky123321]

Looks cool, but I actually don't like how quickly it heats up the brass. Plus or minus say a 1/2 second on my torch annealer isn't going to make a "major" difference when annealing for 5-8+ seconds. However, looks like plus or minus a 1/2 second on these induction annealers could easily mean under or over heated(ruined) brass.

 

[CatShooter]

Looks cool, but I actually don't like how quickly it heats up the brass. Plus or minus say a 1/2 second on my torch annealer isn't going to make a "major" difference when annealing for 5-8+ seconds. However, looks like plus or minus a 1/2 on these induction annealers could easily mean under or over heated(ruined) brass.

P-L-E-A-S-E describe a "Ruined case", and at what temperature it happens - I hear this all the time, and I heat necks to dark red for 4 to 6 seconds, and have never ruined a case.

Are you just repeating something you heard, or do you actually have knowledge of this?

 

[rwh]

It's not so much that the case is ruined, more like the necks lose their springback and don't grip the bullets. The bullet just goes in and stretches the case to the size of the bullet with no grip on the bullet at all. You can still get the brass to come back by working it but it takes a while.

 

[CatShooter]

It's not so much that the case is ruined, more like the necks lose their springback and don't grip the bullets. The bullet just goes in and stretches the case to the size of the bullet with no grip on the bullet at all. You can still get the brass to come back by working it but it takes a while.

In the 45-ish years that I have been annealing with a torch, I have NEVER had that happen. Why is that?

So I still want to know how cases are "ruined".

I think this "ruined case" thing is something people say, just to sound like an expert...people LOVE to warn others (especially when they are doing something for the first time)... "Be careful, you'll put your eye out!"...

... but when you get right down to it, the bad effects never appear.

 

[rwh]

I have only been annealing for a couple of years but I did over anneal some cases early on. I used a pair of vice grips to see how much spring was left in them and they were really dead. I tried shooting some and they were significantly less accurate than cases that had not been overheated. In my experience once they start to glow red the necks are too hot.

 

[dixieppc]

Catshooter Writes:
>> So I still want to know how cases are "ruined". <<

I'll throw my two cents in here which is usually not worth more than 2 cents anyway. I think there are two ways to ruin a case during the annealing process.

The first way, which is pretty evident to the eye, is to overheat the necks to a point that you start getting deformation, ie. you burned them up. I think you pretty much have to TRY to go that far and there have been some photos on this forum showing cases with burned up necks.

The second way, which may not be so evident to the eye and is probably one of your most common ways to "ruin" a case is letting your heat migrate down the case body to the base and end up annealing the case base.

To my limited knowledge of metallurgy, I don't think that there is such a thing as over annealing a case neck, but that there is such a thing as over heating (point of deformation - burning it up) a case neck.

Again, this is just my views from my limited knowledge and I could be and probably am wrong. That's why it's only worth 2 cents.

Regards....

 

[CatShooter]

Catshooter Writes:
>> So I still want to know how cases are "ruined". <<

I'll throw my two cents in here which is usually not worth more than 2 cents anyway. I think there are two ways to ruin a case during the annealing process.

The first way, which is pretty evident to the eye, is to overheat the necks to a point that you start getting deformation, ie. you burned them up. I think you pretty much have to TRY to go that far and there have been some photos on this forum showing cases with burned up necks.

The second way, which may not be so evident to the eye and is probably one of your most common ways to "ruin" a case is letting your heat migrate down the case body to the base and end up annealing the case base.

To my limited knowledge of metallurgy, I don't think that there is such a thing as over annealing a case neck, but that there is such a thing as over heating (point of deformation - burning it up) a case neck.

Again, this is just my views from my limited knowledge and I could be and probably am wrong. That's why it's only worth 2 cents.

Regards....

In both cases, someone would have to set out to do it, and it would be very hard - by heating the neck alone(which is what you are supposed to do) you cannot get the head hot enough to change it's hardness.

To melt the neck, takes more temperature that you can get from a regular (like we use) propane torch.

 

[mikecr]

'Ruined' is when you fully annealed, rather than process annealed, and it's not viable to restore from it(new brass is lower in resource expenditure).

Someone mentioned induction as consistent, but unless 'fit' to the necks, it's as likely consistently bad annealing..
Fitting induction annealing is not easy, especially when it's currently beyond our means to measure the results(Forget tempilac).
I guess I'm suggesting that early adoption here could be risky, or even reckless.

 

[sparky123321]

Contrary to what someone said above, it is possible and relatively easy to ruin or over cook your brass. Honestly, that comment almost wasn't even worth a response.

Go ahead if you think the time and temperature don't matter and heat your entire case neck to base cherry red for a minute or so and then fire off a high pressure charge and see what happens. You will blow your primers out at a minimum, have base separation or an even more catastrophic failure.

Actually, please don't do the above! It's really not about the necks when talking about annealing and safety. Its not the end of the world if you under or over anneal just the neck. Unfortunately though, when you over anneal(time/temp) the necks the softening of the metal can extend further down the case and decrease the strength of the entire case and that's not a good thing.

 

[Elwood]

Wouldn't we all like to know what Lapua, Norma et al have to say about annealing temperatures, I know I would.

 

[CatShooter]

Contrary to what someone said above, it is possible and relatively easy to ruin or over cook your brass. Honestly, that comment almost wasn't even worth a response.

Go ahead if you think the time and temperature don't matter and heat your entire case neck to base cherry red for a minute or so and then fire off a high pressure charge and see what happens. You will blow your primers out at a minimum, have base separation or an even more catastrophic failure.

Actually, please don't do the above! It's really not about the necks when talking about annealing and safety. Its not the end of the world if you under or over anneal just the neck. Unfortunately though, when you over anneal(time/temp) the necks the softening of the metal can extend further down the case and decrease the strength of the entire case and that's not a good thing.

BS...

Do you want to add to a productive discussion, or are you more interested in petty remarks - if you need to anneal a case for a minute, you have too much free time on your hands.

 

[sparky123321]

Most responses that come up when annealing is discussed by someone new to the process are to warn against softening the lower portions of the case by applying too much heat to the case neck(time and or temp). Cases are work hardened on purpose when they are manufactured to provide the strength necessary for the pressures experienced when the round is fired. Work hardening(strength) brass cases is much more important than annealing them to soften the case necks as some manufactures do. If case strength wasn't the primary consideration during manufacturing, I can assure you that you'd see rifle cases manufactured out of a cheaper alloy or metal like aluminum.

By the way Cat, regarding your comment about have too much free time, I see from your number of posts who obviously has way too much free time on their hands.

 

[amlevin]

Maybe it's been mentioned earlier but I missed it.

What is the "Duty Cycle" of the induction unit. Is it capable of heating case after case for hours and hours or does it have to have a cool - down period like most devices of this type (ie: welders).

How much time is actually saved on large batches of brass if the unit has to have "rest periods".

Found this to be a PITA with my ultrasonic cleaner. Has to take a rest break after three cycles and it takes 5-6 cycles to actually clean the brass.

The ultrasonic cleaner is now relegated to cleaning firearm parts and the cases go through the SS Pin cleaning. No constant resetting or waiting needed there.