Lou Murdica's process

[AlNyhus]

Keep in mind...regarding 'square marks' on the bullet...those marks are fairly meaningless, in and of itself.

The width of the lands of the barrel, throat (leade) angle, neck tension and bullet ogive profile all play a role in how the marks look. For example, 'square marks' on a .30 cal. Kreiger is going to be a lot different than 'square marks' on a Lilja .30 three groove.

Since I'm a pretty simple sort, I just seat the bullet progressively shorter until the marks disappear then record that seating stem length as the 'touch point'. Then, simply adjusting the seating stem shorter to get the 'jam/seat' is simple. For example, if the seating stem 'touch point' length is 1.650 and I want .020 'jam/seat', make the seating stem length 1.630 and there you have it.

Whatever the marks are, they are...you know where the bullet is relative to the lands and that's the important thing. The target will tell you the rest. Starting with a good amount of jam/seat and neck tension leaves you only one way to go and simplifies the tuning process, no matter what the bore size is.

Not getting the seating length correct is the biggest single thing I see people struggling with. It's basic stuff but there's so much incorrect info out there, it's no wonder people futz it up.

The late Dick Wright had an excellent article in Precision Shooting on the process. This process should be made a 'sticky' in the reloading section!

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[moorepower]

Mr Murdica's procedure is pretty much the same as a lot of bench rest folks use, I think. My procedure is almost the same. You ask why not start .003" or so off the lands. First - his reference to using powder that fills the case is not to be interpreted as starting high on a ladder test. He is just trying to use a powder that most fills the case when load is developed as opposed to one which leaves a large powder void in the case - which many powder options will do - even at max safe operating velocities. The void will create erratic velocity. I'm, guessing he chooses to shoot "jammed" as opposed to off the lands for a few reasons. First in my mind is shooting jammed eliminates much bullet "damage" from the bullet otherwise hitting the lands slightly off-center due to concentricity issues or "slop". While some loads just don't like being jammed - it is not lost on most shooters that a lot of loads love it above all else- be it because it tightened up concentricity or because of other dynamics which made it the better load in that rifle. About 75% of my target barrels prefer a jammed load with the load I shoot in them. Maybe that is because I automatically go to jam as Mr. Murdica does and that enables me to see that the benefits of jamming are consistent enough to go there first - whereas someone who always starts well off the lands and never feels comfortable jamming just picks the best setting he came across. It is assumed by Mr. Murdica a REDUCED load is used initially, I'm sure. But a newcomer might interpret what you stated as just starting off jamming a bullet with a full case of powder. Not something any of us ever wants to do. You will encounter, as you say, velocity differences when seating bullets at different seating depths - but anytime a major seating depth change is made, an initial reduction in powder is warranted - especially when seating much deeper or going jammed..

If I recall what he said, I am pretty sure that he is against jamming, as it can cause stuck bullets at the wrong time dumping your powder. My take on what he was saying is what jump shoots best in your rifle/ bullet combo, as opposed to others, but I am probably off. I watched the video thinking that I would totally disagree with his findings based on the title, but ended up actually totally agreeing with him. I also do not compete at his or most posters on this topics level, so I am not close to being an expert. His terminology is just different than what I would use.

 

[BoydAllen]

If I recall what he said, I am pretty sure that he is against jamming, as it can cause stuck bullets at the wrong time dumping your powder. My take on what he was saying is what jump shoots best in your rifle/ bullet combo, as opposed to others, but I am probably off. I watched the video thinking that I would totally disagree with his findings based on the title, but ended up actually totally agreeing with him. I also do not compete at his or most posters on this topics level, so I am not close to being an expert. His terminology is just different than what I would use.

The thing that I run into quite often on the internet is that many seem to think that any seating into the rifling runs the risk of bullets being pulled if a live round is removed from a chamber. Nothing could be further from the truth. The next time you get a chance, for a particular rifle, find touch, and actual jam, the length to which a bullet is pushed back when loaded too long for the chamber. If you subtract touch from jam you will lean what the span is between the two, for that particular chamber, bullet and neck tension. In the past I have found that if I seat bullets as little as .003 shorter than jam, but still well into the rifling, that I am in no danger of pulling a bullet accidentally, when working with my 6PPC at the neck tension that seems to work the best with 133. I have discussed seating depth with Lou, for his PPCs and he commonly seats those bullets into the rifling.

 

[searcher]

The thing that I run into quite often on the internet is that many seem to think that any seating into the rifling runs the risk of bullets being pulled if a live round is removed from a chamber. Nothing could be further from the truth. The next time you get a chance, for a particular rifle, find touch, and actual jam, the length to which a bullet is pushed back when loaded too long for the chamber. If you subtract touch from jam you will lean what the span is between the two, for that particular chamber, bullet and neck tension. In the past I have found that if I seat bullets as little as .003 shorter than jam, but still well into the rifling, that I am in no danger of pulling a bullet accidentally, when working with my 6PPC at the neck tension that seems to work the best with 133. I have discussed seating depth with Lou, for his PPCs and he commonly seats those bullets into the rifling.

I agree. It does seem there are two trains of thought out there on this subject. If one seats a bullet really long (past contact) with heavy tension - there is a chance he will pull a non-coated bullet if extracting before firing, especially if the throat is toasted. I have done it a few times. When moly, HBN or other coating is applied, that chance diminishes greatly to almost nil. I have never stuck a coated bullet but I won't say it cannot be done - just that I have never been able to. We are not talking super heavy tension or crimped bullets here. That said - I think most shooters (bench rest) are shooting with relatively light tension and not a hard jamb - but more of a "soft seat", whereby bullets are seated long under tension which allows the bullets to finish seating themselves when the bolt is closed. One simply can't get a true "hard jamb" with the light tension most commonly used by a lot of bench rest folks. That is not to say there aren't those that use a ton of tension, uncoated bullets - and when seating really long - will stick one here and there. If one knows their tension, throat condition, etc., they can avoid sticking entirely.

 

[moorepower]

The thing that I run into quite often on the internet is that many seem to think that any seating into the rifling runs the risk of bullets being pulled if a live round is removed from a chamber. Nothing could be further from the truth. The next time you get a chance, for a particular rifle, find touch, and actual jam, the length to which a bullet is pushed back when loaded too long for the chamber. If you subtract touch from jam you will lean what the span is between the two, for that particular chamber, bullet and neck tension. In the past I have found that if I seat bullets as little as .003 shorter than jam, but still well into the rifling, that I am in no danger of pulling a bullet accidentally, when working with my 6PPC at the neck tension that seems to work the best with 133. I have discussed seating depth with Lou, for his PPCs and he commonly seats those bullets into the rifling.

The video I watched was F class and long range shooter Eric Cortina, and those were his words. I have also dumped powder from a stuck bullet, so... You have 1000 times more knowledge than I so I am not disputing you, but I was going off of a different video titled, Chasing the lands is stupid. I watched the wrong video

 

[TrxR]

The video I watched was F class and long range shooter Eric Cortina, and those were his words. I have also dumped powder from a stuck bullet, so... You have 1000 times more knowledge than I so I am not disputing you, but I was going off of a different video titled, Chasing the lands is stupid. I watched the wrong video

I would have to watch the video again but I understood him to say he ran his bench guns at a jam but not his fclass as he was woried about dumping powder do to a stuck bullet if he had to remove a loaded round.

Im thinking in benchrest they allow the rifle to be fired to clear the round.

 

[drop_point]

Too simple to be true? In the Tactical rifle 'Play Army' world, it's adequate. Like the ridiculous OCW method, it 'works' only because the bar isn't set real high.


Good shootin'. - Al

I'm not sure PRS shooting is "playing army". However, it is true that PRS and similar disciplines don't require the same level of precision, but they do require high levels of accuracy in field conditions and positions. Some say benchrest tests your ability to make ammo, PRS tests your ability to shoot.

 

[jimmymac]

Some say benchrest tests your ability to make ammo, PRS tests your ability to shoot.

I don’t know who says that, but they couldn’t be further from the truth. In SR score or group shooting, the best shooters always win. Not the best reloaders.

 

[drop_point]

I don’t know who says that, but they couldn’t be further from the truth. In SR score or group shooting, the best shooters always win. Not the best reloaders.

I don't think the best shooter could win in that discipline with ammo that shoots .3s at best, could he?

In PRS the best shooter can win with 1 MOA ammo. A mediocre shooter couldn't win with ammo that shot .1s.

Its always a combination of shooter, rifle, ammo, but dare I say the ammo is more important in SR BR than any other discipline.

 

[jimmymac]

Im sorry but you are incorrect. No one in the SR game loads crappy ammo, so it comes down to tune and reading the wind and mirage. The best shooters always win.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Thank you guys. I don't own a tunnel and I cannot bring my reloading stuff to the range. What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

This is not how PRS shooters tune a load.

 

[drop_point]

Tuning isn't part of the load process? NOBODY loads better ammo?

 

[jimmymac]

Tuning isn't part of the load process? NOBODY loads better ammo?

I'm not going to around in circles with you. I load good ammo. Just about everyone that plays these games loads good stuff. Believe what you want, but having the best ammo and tune doesn't ensure a win on match day for SR group or score. For years, it was the norm to throw powder charges without weighing, fully knowing that being .1 or .2 grains off of the desired charge would still provide acceptable results on target. Many in those games including myself still don't weigh charges. Missing a pickup or a let off hurts more than anything.

A few weeks ago, I won a UBR match in WV. I won because I was the best shooter on that particular day, not because my ammo was better. There was a distinct smooth flowing left to right mirage at 200 yards that I took advantage of, even though my closest flag was consistently 180 degrees in disagreement. I shot a few sighters and realized the condition was money in the bank regardless of what the first flag were telling me.

Not blowing my horn here. Just telling it how it goes down most days. My ammo didn't make the difference between a win and a loss. A half dozen other guys on the line had good tunes on their guns too. They just didn't see what I was seeing on that particular day. The next time it will be someone else and I'll be struggling. It always comes down to the shooter.

 

[drop_point]

Thank you guys. I don't own a tunnel and I cannot bring my reloading stuff to the range. What do you think about a method which popular on snipershide?
You work up a load to a certain velocity and just play with a seating depth for accuracy? It seems to simple to be true...

I don't think that's how most PRS shooters develop loads. Most will vary powder charges working up to pressure and look for velocity nodes. They will select a wide node, choose a powder charge within that node, and begin adjusting seating depth to find a seating depth node.

 

[drop_point]

I'm not going to around in circles with you. I load good ammo. Just about everyone that plays these games loads good stuff. Believe what you want, but having the best ammo and tune doesn't ensure a win on match day for SR group or score. For years, it was the norm to throw powder charges without weighing, fully knowing that being .1 or .2 grains off of the desired charge would still provide acceptable results on target. Many in those games including myself still don't weigh charges. Missing a pickup or a let off hurts more than anything.

A few weeks ago, I won a UBR match in WV. I won because I was the best shooter on that particular day, not because my ammo was better. There was a distinct smooth flowing left to right mirage at 200 yards that I took advantage of, even though my closest flag was consistently 180 degrees in disagreement. I shot a few sighters and realized the condition was money in the bank regardless of what the first flag were telling me.

Not blowing my horn here. Just telling it how it goes down most days. My ammo didn't make the difference between a win and a loss. A half dozen other guys on the line had good tunes on their guns too. They just didn't see what I was seeing on that particular day. The next time it will be someone else and I'll be struggling. It always comes down to the shooter.

Congratulations.

 

[BartsBullets]

I'm not sure PRS shooting is "playing army". However, it is true that PRS and similar disciplines don't require the same level of precision, but they do require high levels of accuracy in field conditions and positions. Some say benchrest tests your ability to make ammo, PRS tests your ability to shoot.

I see you’re kind of in a argument here with Jimmy Mac but your analysis couldn’t be farther from the truth.

In short range you have to keep the gun tuned, read conditions down to a knats-ass, and have great gun-handling. Most of all it comes down to how well you read the conditions.

Im in Kentucky you’re welcome come on over and shoot at my place. You can shoot my Benchrest rifles and see what I’m talking about. It’s not as easy as it seems putting 5 or 10 shots through the same hole.

Once, I talked a long range buddy into shooting a match. I gave him my rifle that won a yardage and a grand at the Nationals about two weeks prior. Helped him load his ammo (the rifle was tuned and shot like a laser). Durning the match He could barely get two bullets to touch at 100 yards. His words were, “How can it be that hard! I can see the target! It’s right there!”


Bart

 

[drop_point]

I see you’re kind of in a argument here with Jimmy Mac but your analysis couldn’t be farther from the truth.

In short range you have to keep the gun tuned, read conditions down to a knats-ass, and have great gun-handling. Most of all it comes down to how well you read the conditions.

Im in Kentucky you’re welcome come on over and shoot at my place. You can shoot my Benchrest rifles and see what I’m talking about. It’s not as easy as it seems putting 5 or 10 shots through the same hole.

Once, I talked a long range buddy into shooting a match. I gave him my rifle that won a yardage and a grand at the Nationals about two weeks prior. Helped him load his ammo (the rifle was tuned and shot like a laser). Durning the match He could barely get two bullets to touch at 100 yards. His words were, “How can it be that hard! I can see the target! It’s right there!”


Bart

Nah, not in an argument. All friendly here! And maybe my phrasing isn't all that great, maybe I should say loading (keeping the rifle in tune) is much more important in some disciplines than others, while field marksmanship is more important than others.

I've got a perception, perhaps that's where my thinking comes from. I'll tell you about an experience I had:

I once showed up for a PRS match that had really bad conditions and the . I local F-class shooter had been showing up to PRS matches and not faring too well. He convinced the match director to change it to a 600 yard F-Class match. He went to the car and changed rifles to an F-Open rig.

He went from bottom ten percent in the monthly match to winning. The make-shift match was 40 rounds and he dropped one point with a 23 (if I remember correctly) X-count.

I had won the last three matches in PRS-style discipline at the club. I was shooting an AI rifle off an Atlas bipod with a squeeze bag. I dropped 2 pts over the course of fire and had an X-count around 21. My group was as good as any I'd ever shot at 600 with that rifle and load. His was tighter.

I would question, how much was marksmanship? Was his marksmanship actually better that day? How much would a more "in-tune" load have changed things? Sure, it was good enough for the match I was supposed to show up for. The next match went back to the advertised format and he went back down to the bottom ranks at the PRS shooting but he continued to win the local F-Class matches frequently. I later decided to shoot some of the F-Class matches with my field gun. I tweaked my load and even won a few! I have since gotten the bug to build a *real* F-class rifle and shoot again, especially now the twins are getting out of diapers any day.

I appreciate your generous offer, Bart. You're a true class act. Maybe someday I'll take you up on it, looks like about a five hour drive or so. I'm sure you could teach me more than I could imagine about your sport that would make me better at "belly benchrest" once I get the ball rolling.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I see you’re kind of in a argument here with Jimmy Mac but your analysis couldn’t be farther from the truth.

In short range you have to keep the gun tuned, read conditions down to a knats-ass, and have great gun-handling. Most of all it comes down to how well you read the conditions.

Im in Kentucky you’re welcome come on over and shoot at my place. You can shoot my Benchrest rifles and see what I’m talking about. It’s not as easy as it seems putting 5 or 10 shots through the same hole.

Once, I talked a long range buddy into shooting a match. I gave him my rifle that won a yardage and a grand at the Nationals about two weeks prior. Helped him load his ammo (the rifle was tuned and shot like a laser). Durning the match He could barely get two bullets to touch at 100 yards. His words were, “How can it be that hard! I can see the target! It’s right there!”


Bart

He who is in control of the conditions wins. Of course a barrel and bullets it likes is a big help. The right combo of barrel, bullets, and shooter is pretty much unbeatable.

 

[1shot]

Just a quick thought here all. People will use the phrase "it's the Indian, not the arrow".
My counter to this is I don't know a single Indian tribe that survived shooting crooked arrows! The point being, is that to be successful in any discipline, there MUST be a blend of accurate ammo and skill of the shooter.
Just my .02c

Lloyd

 

[michaeljp65]

did anyone else notice how flat the seating pressure graph was?