Bronze Brushes Don't Hurt Barrels.

[FrankG]

The guys you refer to in your episode probably do not understand that while premium barrel makers can guarantee bore and groove diameters within .0001 inch, you are still at the mercy of the deep hole drilling process that can, and will, produce a hole that is not perfectly straight with its own self.If you do drop a 3 1/2 inch long gage pin down that barrel with only a few “tenths” of clearance, and it encounters a spot that is not exactly straight, it will stick.

Liked all your comments!

It's not just the straightness of the blank your dealing with at times.

Guy starts pushing a pin in there and the bore has some dirt/carbon in it from shooting (yes we've had guys pin or slug the barrel after they shot it) or there is some lint from running some patches down the bore or some left over solvents or oil...

You just need one little thing to cause that pin to stick....and presto you have a problem!

 

[bobm]

Where you get them pre made rolls?

I make them from those heavy blue, green or white shop paper towels from auto parts stores. Pretty easy using wood glue and the slotted jag. Spread the glue sparingly with a bent paper clip. Apply it in the web area, makes it rigid for easy slipping into the slot from either end. Apply it in a couple of places along the rolling. I make about two dozen at a time pretty fast. The size shown is a 1/4" slotted rod with the rolls about 3/8". They compress just right to get into .30 and .284 chamber necks.

 

[bobm]

You can wrap a PH jag the same way, glue the end. Easy to remove when done.

 

[Mulligan]

How much throat erosion is normal after 80 rounds or so (F-Class or LRBR)? For the sake of this discussion let assume a BR/BRA/Dasher shooting H4895 with 103-105 gr bullets.
How will the erosion differ based on cleaning method? Or does it? Again for the sake of this discussion, cleaning with Kroil/JB/patch vs solvent and bronze brush?

Thanks
CW

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

Hard to say on damage from bore scopes...the only thing I can say is be careful.

I've seen my fair share of barrels where guys pushed gauge pins down the bores and they either get them stuck or even if they don't get them stuck...the score the tops of the lands.

Guys pounding on cleaning rods and I'll throw in there...using multi piece cleaning rods...getting bore snakes (which I really don't like for different reasons as well) stuck in the barrels and then things get damaged trying to get them out.

I'll give you a good one on the gauge pins. It wasn't one or two but try like a couple hundred barrels we made for a customer. I get a phone call saying as they are finish machining the barrels the bores are tightening/closing up. I said what? They felt it was stress in the material. I said if that was the case then the bores should be opening up most likely but not getting tighter. I'll say no way but let's throw Murphy's law into this and say it happened.

Keep in mind here we sent an inspection report for every single barrel (you all have seen our barrels and we stamp them with a s/n). The inspection report gave the measurements for the bore and groove size to the 4th decimal place.

So I asked them to send me a couple and if they had some that where not finished machined to send a couple of those back as well so we can look at everything. So we get them in and right away I notice on the barrels that had work done to them...all of the bores (tops of the lands) where scored and some pretty heavily. The scoring was so heavy....that's why the bores tightened up. Nothing changed on the grooves. By the grooves not changing I know it's not a stress situation. If the bore is going to change the groove will as well. The barrels that had no work done to them looked same as when they left here. So I called them up and asked how where they setting them up for finish work and or where they checking the bores some how? Sure enough it came out that they where putting gauge pins down the bores to check them for size. I said, "guys why are you doing that!!!" We sent an inspection report along for all of them. If you want to spot check one here or there I get it but all of them? I told them to never do that again.

Frank, So would you say using a gage pin, range rod, etc. to dial in a barrel for chambering is a bad idea and can mess up the lands?

 

[AlNyhus]

Like a lot of things, common sense and paying attention to the basics gets you 90% of the way there. And there's a lot of Urban Legend that just gets regurgitated.....

Take the time to feel the junction of the jag/brush/adapter to the cleaning rod. If you can feel a sharp edge with your finger nail, what do you think is happening when you pull the rod back into the barrel and across the crown? Take some fine abrasive paper, smooth the edge and life will be much better.

Another consideration for crown life is the dimensions of the lands/grooves. The crown of a barrel with .172/.168 dimensions just isn't going to stand up to the same treatment that a .308/.300 will. The width of the lands also plays a role, obviously.

Common sense, good fitting rod guides, quality cleaning rods, taking care of any sharp edges, quality brushes/patches, quality solvents and taking the time to understand what an individual barrel needs for cleaning instead of how clean we want it to be is the best approach.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[jelenko]

All this talk about crowns => what do you think of using one of these https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...utters/79-muzzle-crowning-cutter-prod628.aspx to touch up an existing 11degree or recessed crown?

This would be for an application where 1/2 MOA - 3/4 MOA precision is fine.

 

[FrankG]

Frank, So would you say using a gage pin, range rod, etc. to dial in a barrel for chambering is a bad idea and can mess up the lands?

No not saying that.

Just be careful shoving stuff like a pin gauge down the bore all the way. Don't force anything.

Using the gauge pin etc...for your set up..I get it. Same thing with the bushing for your range rod/chamber reamer...don't try to run it size on size etc...you can score the tops of the lands.

I've seen guys do it with anything from a 22rf barrel thru 375cal barrels. They run the bushing to tight and they scored the tops of the lands. The one guy with the 375 had a solid piloted reamer (wasn't set up for an interchangeable bushing). Guy calls me and says the reamer (375 H&H) won't go into the barrel. I said well we run min spec. What size bushing are you using on the reamer? He says, What bushing? So after finding out what he had I told him to send the reamer back to the maker and get it converted. Those solid piloted type reamers they make the pilot area at size or a little over. Meant for production/button type barrels as they can run larger on bore size.

Glad he didn't try forcing it into the barrel. If so he would've scored the lands and or broke the tool and possibly get the tool stuck in the barrel.

Just be careful and pay attention to what your doing.

Later, Frank

 

[FrankG]

All this talk about crowns => what do you think of using one of these https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...utters/79-muzzle-crowning-cutter-prod628.aspx to touch up an existing 11degree or recessed crown?

This would be for an application where 1/2 MOA - 3/4 MOA precision is fine.

That's a piloted tool. Again just be careful and watch your pilot sizes and your set up. Don't run it too tight. Tighter doesn't mean better.

I'd run the bushing/pilot like .0004" or .0006" under bore size for a starting point. Don't go bigger/less clearance than that though.

 

[FrankG]

The "picture" is back.

That thing has seen more Internet posts than the Zapruder film.

"Back and to the left... back and to the left...."

I found another one I had laying around.

It's not an inside picture of the bore but it looks the same. Not as bad but has the same damage going on.

Also note the bore and groove dimensions. He took dam near a .001" out of the bore and a .001" out of the grooves as well.

Later, Frank

 

[urbanrifleman]

I found another one I had laying around.

It's not an inside picture of the bore but it looks the same. Not as bad but has the same damage going on.

Also note the bore and groove dimensions. He took dam near a .001" out of the bore and a .001" out of the grooves as well.

Later, Frank

It was the limo driver with an air pistol that shoots ice bullets.

 

[Billy 30-06]

The bronze brush will not hurt your barrel or crown if pushed all the way through muzzle before pulling back through the bore. After putting 50 rounds through your barrel the only way you're going to get the carbon out is with a good bronze brush and solvent. Bronze brushes don't last too long and must be replaced often. They may last a bit longer if not pulled back through the bore. You can feel the drag from a dirty barrel decrease as the brush removes the carbon. I use Butches and just dry the brush off with a rag. I found they last just as long as dipping them in brake cleaner or running hot water over them. Over 50 years of cleaning barrels every way right or wrong I've found cleaning with a good bronze brush is the best way to prevent carbon rings and build up midway down the barrel. If a bronze goes down a dirty barrel too easy throw it away and replace it with a new one.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Like a lot of things, common sense and paying attention to the basics gets you 90% of the way there. And there's a lot of Urban Legend that just gets regurgitated.....

Take the time to feel the junction of the jag/brush/adapter to the cleaning rod. If you can feel a sharp edge with your finger nail, what do you think is happening when you pull the rod back into the barrel and across the crown? Take some fine abrasive paper, smooth the edge and life will be much better.

Another consideration for crown life is the dimensions of the lands/grooves. The crown of a barrel with .172/.168 dimensions just isn't going to stand up to the same treatment that a .308/.300 will. The width of the lands also plays a role, obviously.

Common sense, good fitting rod guides, quality cleaning rods, taking care of any sharp edges, quality brushes/patches, quality solvents and taking the time to understand what an individual barrel needs for cleaning instead of how clean we want it to be is the best approach.

Good shootin' -Al

That goes for about everything in life!

 

[brokeasajoke]

I would venture a guess that nobody cleans barrels more than Short Range Group Shooters.

The vast majority, myself included, literally clean after each group.

We use bronze brushes. We pull it both ways through the bore. I have not put anything in a barrel ibut Butches Bore Shine since Butch came up with the formula years ago.

The only time my 6PPC barrels start to degrade is when, after so many rounds, the throat starts to erode. Then, I set it back to establish a new throat and start over.

Now, I can give you first hand experience as to how a particular cleaning method can destroy a barrels accuracy. AndI see shooters do it often.That being, letting that rod lay on the bottom portion of that barrel for a long distance with a long stroke After the brush or jag clears the barrel.

Years ago, I chambered a barrel for a friend that was a screamer. Instant success. But after about three matches, it stopped shooting.

I noticed that he was using really long strokes while cleaning, letting that Dewey rod lay on that bore fore six or so inches.

I looked at the barrel with a magnifying glass and told him to take it off and bring it to me. I chucked it up, and sure enough, for about 1/2 inch in, that barrel had had about a .0005 “trough” wore in the bottom.

I cut about one inch off, recrowned it, and it returned to it’s former glory.

So, my best tip for cleaning is don’t worry about properly used bronze brushes hurting a barrel, and avoid using concoctions that have a skull and cross bones on the bottle.

Use a good bore guide and stop that darned rod the instant it clears the bore.

Now, this works for us in short range. Disciplines where you are not allowed to clean because of the Format, that is a different game.

So this would include pulling the rod back through the barrel as it lays on the bottom after brush removed?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

So this would include pulling the rod back through the barrel as it lays on the bottom after brush removed?

It has been proven that a polished stainless rod will not scratch a barrel so its no problem. Carbon fiber and coated rods are a different story

 

[jelenko]

Nooooooo.
All I've got are Dewey coated rods - and one carbon fiber Tipton.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Nooooooo.
All I've got are Dewey coated rods - and one carbon fiber Tipton.

Youll be fine

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Remember barrels are a consumable just like brushes and bullets

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It's not a carbon fiber vs ss rod issue. It's about debris on either one. I did a test. Trust me...carbon fiber won't hurt your barrel. It might break, go through your wrist in splinters and you might bleed out...but it won't hurt your barrel. In fact, after my test, carbon fiber rods are my preference and no, I don't have a death wish for myself or my barrels. I had a video of the test but it's been a while and I doubt I can find it. It wasn't even CLOSE! CF will not hurt your bbl.

 

[brokeasajoke]

It has been proven that a polished stainless rod will not scratch a barrel so its no problem. Carbon fiber and coated rods are a different story

Nooooooo.
All I've got are Dewey coated rods - and one carbon fiber Tipton.

Well crap, but it's not like I have any high end customs.