Bronze Brushes Don't Hurt Barrels.

[M-61]

^^^^^^^
Dave, as anal as I am about my 6PPC barrels, the 1-17 and 1-18 twist 30 caliber barrels I use in Score seem to defy all of the rules.

I can shoot an entire Grand Agg without cleaning, and upon cleaning, they come clean with an amazing lack of effort.

I don’t know if it is the larger diameter or the slow twist that accounts for this.

I’m one of the few non experts on anything here.
Given a guess it’s the slow twist
My 3 br’s in 30 (17,17 1/2, and 18 twist) not only clean easily they seem not to get that dirty (except years ago using Varget which I won’t even look for at all). They are the most accurate rifles I own. I even wonder if you can shoot one of these barrels out?
So I’ll guess at the slow twist.

 

[WayneShaw]

“Where did the never clean philosophy come from”
At this years TackDriver11, Wayne France, who won the score portion of the event, told me that he never cleans a barrel. He does, however, use coated bullets. His chamber is a 30WW, which (I think) is a 30BR with the shoulder moved forward for a little more capacity. I might be wrong on this.

I thought he was pulling my leg about the cleaning, but others have since confirmed this.

I have shot with Wayne for close to 30 years, we started benchrest the same year, the same range. The "WW" stands for he and I. Anyway, he jumped on the moly bandwagon and followed Berger's cleaning method, but at some point he changed to Danzac, and he doesn't clean his barrels. And he wins a lot!

 

[FrankG]

“Where did the never clean philosophy come from”
At this years TackDriver11, Wayne France, who won the score portion of the event, told me that he never cleans a barrel. He does, however, use coated bullets. His chamber is a 30WW, which (I think) is a 30BR with the shoulder moved forward for a little more capacity. I might be wrong on this.

I thought he was pulling my leg about the cleaning, but others have since confirmed this.

We here it a lot from shooters attending shooting schools/seminars etc... being given by instructors etc...I won't get any deeper than that into it.

Jackie as you know...there is a lot of misinformation out there as well.

I'm very blatant about it when someone tells me...well I wouldn't clean the gun for 500 rounds....then I speak my mind.

But yes....we hear it all to frequently.

 

[FrankG]

Don’t scare me you guys…I used losso in conjunction once with the ‘nylon brush’ they recommend applying a small amount. I made iirc about 10 -20 passes on a barrel I shot at the Nat’s with about 1100 rounds on it, it definitely improved the groups at the time however I did pull the barrel for a future shoot.

Hope it’s still good..
Jim

Jim, Your probably fine. It's the guys that get really aggressive with the stuff and or not paying attention to detail.

 

[FrankG]

Jackie, A few times last year and as an example...guy calls up and says the barrel is no good. It quite shooting!

So I/we ask the normal questions...how many rounds on it, what's your load, how you cleaning it etc...

I had a several guys last year along shooting big magnum rounds tell me or send me pictures of the barrels bore and say..it quite shooting or it's prematurely wearing... and when I aske the question....how are you cleaning it? Well it's only got 287 rounds on it and I haven't cleaned it since day one!!!! I get him to clean it the way I want him too and guess what...accuracy came right back.

No different than the person who drives they're truck or car and never changes the oil....then they wonder why it ran out of oil or the engine came apart on them! A friend of mines aunt asked him to look at her car. Said it was making funny noises. So he did....he knew it wasn't good. Pulled the dipstick to check the oil....no oil on the dipstick. Turned out not once did the oil get changed or checked or added in like 50+k miles. He asked what gives? Well she said I had a 7 year 70k mile warranty. I shouldn't have to do anything to it right?

 

[jackieschmidt]

Hard to say on damage from bore scopes...the only thing I can say is be careful.

I've seen my fair share of barrels where guys pushed gauge pins down the bores and they either get them stuck or even if they don't get them stuck...the score the tops of the lands.

Guys pounding on cleaning rods and I'll throw in there...using multi piece cleaning rods...getting bore snakes (which I really don't like for different reasons as well) stuck in the barrels and then things get damaged trying to get them out.

I'll give you a good one on the gauge pins. It wasn't one or two but try like a couple hundred barrels we made for a customer. I get a phone call saying as they are finish machining the barrels the bores are tightening/closing up. I said what? They felt it was stress in the material. I said if that was the case then the bores should be opening up most likely but not getting tighter. I'll say no way but let's throw Murphy's law into this and say it happened.

Keep in mind here we sent an inspection report for every single barrel (you all have seen our barrels and we stamp them with a s/n). The inspection report gave the measurements for the bore and groove size to the 4th decimal place.

So I asked them to send me a couple and if they had some that where not finished machined to send a couple of those back as well so we can look at everything. So we get them in and right away I notice on the barrels that had work done to them...all of the bores (tops of the lands) where scored and some pretty heavily. The scoring was so heavy....that's why the bores tightened up. Nothing changed on the grooves. By the grooves not changing I know it's not a stress situation. If the bore is going to change the groove will as well. The barrels that had no work done to them looked same as when they left here. So I called them up and asked how where they setting them up for finish work and or where they checking the bores some how? Sure enough it came out that they where putting gauge pins down the bores to check them for size. I said, "guys why are you doing that!!!" We sent an inspection report along for all of them. If you want to spot check one here or there I get it but all of them? I told them to never do that again.

Frank, a good friend of mine, (now deceased), once dropped a deltronic pin down the bore of a new Unlimited Blank and it stuck. The hardenned pin actually put a small line in the lands. Never did that again.

The guys you refer to in your episode probably do not understand that while premium barrel makers can guarantee bore and groove diameters within .0001 inch, you are still at the mercy of the deep hole drilling process that can, and will, produce a hole that is not perfectly straight with its own self.If you do drop a 3 1/2 inch long gage pin down that barrel with only a few “tenths” of clearance, and it encounters a spot that is not exactly straight, it will stick.

You have very sophisticated equipment on site that allows you to check the dimensions on every barrel. I shake my head when so called experts think that is not good enough.

I like your advice. “Don’t ever do that again”.

 

[Thauglor]

I do the same, only use brake fluid to neutralize the brush.

What are you trying to neutralize with brake fluid?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What are you trying to neutralize with brake fluid?

The solvents that clean copper also eat the brush.

 

[INTJ]

I mainly shoot LR BR. I also shoot hunting rifles. I have cleaned bores just about every way imaginable over many years. All of those methods work.

I have never had cleaning, regardless of how I did it, be an issue for me at a match or on a hunt. For LR BR, most barrels seem to last me 1000-1300 rounds.

I pulled a 6BRA barrel last year at 1000 rounds. I had cleaned it every 80-100 rounds with Iosso, using their hard nylon brushes. I thought maybe Iosso had accelerated throat erosion a bit, but it was still within the normal range for a 6 BRA. What I did notice was how nice and smooth Iosso kept the throat and bore. I could rechamber this barrel and get more life out of it.

Nowadays I use Iosso every other cleaning. In between I use chemicals. So my barrels get Iosso every 150-200 rounds, depending on the cartridge.

One thing I don't see as much as I should is guys cleaning the lugs and chamber. After cleaning the bore, regardless of the method, there is usually a bunch of crap right before the throat area. If you don't pull the bore guide and clean this out, it will keep getting pushed through the bore. Either with patches or a bullet.

Many have talked about making sure the brush is clean for each pass, as a dirty brush potentially pushes abrasive material through the bore. What about a bullet? That same hard carbon is there unless we clean to bare metal after every shot.

Guys get worked up over cleaning for no reason. Be systematic and thoughtful and what you do will work.

 

[bobm]

This has been quite an informative thread by all the great responses.

2. 20ge or 12ga brush spinning on a short rod with drill to get carbon ring?


NO!! unless your talking about .50 BMG or larger.

Use a larger than neck OD bronze brush wrapped with a solvent damp patch and hand turn in the chamber neck. Check and repeat as needed.

I tend to get the thicker hard carbon ring with higher volume shooting with no cleaning in between. I made this bronze slotted tip for pre made rolls to be used with JB compound. Spins out easily rotating by hand.

 

[D-4297]

I totally second what @INTJ is saying about the neck and chamber area . I probably spend more time cleaning that , more than the barrel . and heaven forbid . That is a area where I use a nylon Hard-brush , C4 , and a low speed drill . he brush is for a .338 being used in a .308 chamber , and pushed gently up to the Leade , and maybe a small amount into the rifling . Not sure . But I'm getting anywhere between 4,600 , down to 3,700 rounds out of my last five barrels. So I may not be doing it "right" but it's working for me . Nylon Brush in the Bore . C4 , and occasionally Wipe Out , just to change things up . Every 900 to 1,000 rounds , I might use the Bore-tech Bore polish just for grins . Never any serious abrasives , and never aggressive with anything .

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont know what others have seen when it comes to what causes accuracy to fall off but I think a throat is every bit as important as a crown. When you hear about setting a barrel back and accuracy comes back its because the throat is sharp again, not because you cut out some worn barrel. Many times guys only set them back one thread. Abrasives smooth out those sharp edges of the throat. So when using iosso or jb make sure your in front of the throat when short stroking. The carbon builds up in front of the throat any ways. I also will not use steel wool or abrasives to break in a throat. I leave them as chambered. I just chambered a new Krieger, fire formed 100 cases on day one. Not a streak of blue. Chambered up a new Bartlien the next day and put about 70 on it, not a streak of blue. Dont mess up a good throat. If they are rough fix the reamer or chambering process.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What are you trying to neutralize with brake fluid?

I think he might mean brake cleaner rather than brake fluid, but I may be wrong.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I hose the brush off with brake cleaner after each use. It works. They stay nice and shiny. If I forget they are a blue mess.

 

[AlNyhus]

And this is where I get confused. A bronze brush is completely safe for the bore but can damage the crown if the brush is pulled back through. Same steel, different results. What am I missing?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

2. 20ge or 12ga brush spinning on a short rod with drill to get carbon ring?


NO!! unless your talking about .50 BMG or larger.

Use a larger than neck OD bronze brush wrapped with a solvent damp patch and hand turn in the chamber neck. Check and repeat as needed.

I tend to get the thicker hard carbon ring with higher volume shooting with no cleaning in between. I made this bronze slotted tip for pre made rolls to be used with JB compound. Spins out easily rotating by hand.

Where you get them pre made rolls?

 

[pilediver]

I used to clean with patches and a brush and thought I was keeping up. When my new rifles accuracy deteriorated I broke down and got a Teslong and was horrified at the carbon left after cleaning.
I tried brushing with every cleaner, Kroil, Free All, Hoppes and made little progress.
J-B Bore Bright was next, per the instructions, on a patch wrapped around a smaller brush.
Immediate improvement, and done 3 times the carbon was nearly all gone.
Used a new brush and Free All to get the last remnants in the corners of the grooves and accuracy was returned.
Does the use of Bore Bright and limited use of a brush seem okay?

 

[gambleone]

I think he might mean brake cleaner rather than brake fluid, but I may be wrong.

Yes, brake cleaner.

 

[gambleone]

What are you trying to neutralize with brake fluid?

Sorry, I meant brake cleaner. Not enough coffee.

 

[FrankG]

The guys you refer to in your episode probably do not understand that while premium barrel makers can guarantee bore and groove diameters within .0001 inch, you are still at the mercy of the deep hole drilling process that can, and will, produce a hole that is not perfectly straight with its own self.If you do drop a 3 1/2 inch long gage pin down that barrel with only a few “tenths” of clearance, and it encounters a spot that is not exactly straight, it will stick.

Liked all your comments!

It's not just the straightness of the blank your dealing with at times.

Guy starts pushing a pin in there and the bore has some dirt/carbon in it from shooting (yes we've had guys pin or slug the barrel after they shot it) or there is some lint from running some patches down the bore or some left over solvents or oil...

You just need one little thing to cause that pin to stick....and presto you have a problem!