Bronze Brushes Don't Hurt Barrels.
- Thread starter Gargoyle
- Start date
You mean this pic. This is the worse one I've ever seen and yes I/we have seen more than our share of damaged bores. I saved the pic as well as I have a portion of the barrel in my office.
What is going on in the pic was the shooter was using a bronze brush in conjunction with an abrasive cleaner. The gouges going up and over the lands are from the bristles of the brush. There is no way every bristle will follow the twist of the rifling.
You use a brush and an abrasive and it also depends on how aggressive the guy is with cleaning but at some point I will guarantee bore damage will happen.
Ask Mark here....he will tell you himself that he wrecked a barrel he set world records with by using a brush and abrasive cleaner at the same time. Guess what he doesn't do that anymore.
This was a 284w F class barrel. At 100 rounds the shooter started having accuracy issues. The picture is at 800 rounds. Instead of the bore and groove measuring .277" x .284"...it now measures .279" x .2855". When you look down the barrel with the naked eye you can see the damage. Used a brush and KG2 bore paste.
I've seen guys use a brush and Witch's brew and this type of damaged you could start seeing early on. One guy I replaced three barrels for in like 6 months. One of his 6.5's had a 110 rounds on it and the damage was showing already. He also had a .001" polished out of the bore as well. I told him I wasn't replacing another barrel for him. I told him if he sent another one in that looked like this...it wasn't going to happen. I told him he had to change his cleaning technique. Same shooter about a year or two later was calling up a bullet maker and saying they had bad bullets as they we're blowing up. Guess what..it wasn't the bullets it was the damage he was doing to the bore....the damage in the bore was beating up the bullets more and causing the failures.
About a year later a shooter from MI (gunsmith called me that did the install work on the barrel) and the customer had a 308win gun. His barrel had 500 rounds on it and again the gouge marks where showing and again he had like a .001 or a .0015" out of the bore of the barrel.
Those are just some examples.
At times you have to use a brush. I get it. I don't drag the brush back over the crown. I only push the brush breech to muzzle. I'll unscrew the brush before pulling the rod back thru. We see a lot of damage to the edges of the muzzle crowns and part of it is because of dragging the brush back over the edge of the crown. The crown is the last thing the bullet touches when leaving the barrel. A damaged crown can effect accuracy.
Never reverse the direction of brush in the bore.
You use a dam drill and spin the cleaning rod in the bore with a brush etc...on it...don't call us! I/we've seen plenty of the edges on the lands with hammered nick marks on it from guys doing this.
Just because the guy next to you cleans differently doesn't mean he's doing it better. There's more than one way to skin this cat. So if you have a cleaning procedure that you use and your not wrecking anything stick with it. You send in a barrel that looks like this...we know exactly what is going on.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
I can say that reversing a bronze brush that isn't worn enough does leave marks.
Describe this please
I assume you mean reversing while in the barrel.
Unless the brush is worn to nearly nothing, good luck on reversing it.
My guess is you'll pull the rifle out of whatever you have holding it.
Man, talk about a solid lock up!
I have a few fake wood plaques hanging around the shop, and, since 1987, haven't used a brush of any kind when cleaning my competition barrels. For some [larger] capacity:expansion ratio cartridges, I will use a brush to remove stubborn carbon. Since leaving brushes behind, I have confirmed my cleaning routine/barrel condition via bore-scope inspection . . . and a rifle/barrels ability to [consistently] win/place/show in registered bench-rest tournaments. All of the Bartlein barrels have proven capable that. RG
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
With a worn bronze brush you can short stroke it to focus on specific areas of the bore and avoid having the brush exit the muzzle/crown.
If the brush is new, it is very, very/impossible to reverse direction while it's in the bore. As it gets well worn, it will reverse fairly easily.
One time, I had a what I thought was a 'worn enough' brush. It was difficult to reverse direction. Using a borescope, I could see new marks [significant scratches] where the brush had been reversed.
FWIW. I've found wrapping some bronze wool around a well worn brass brush helps remove carbon using either Free All or an abrasive.
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
Not sure what 'worn to nothing' is, but I do it regularly when working on the tough carbon.
But, yeah, a new brush ain't being reversed manually.
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
I am not a expert but regularly fire 80-100 rounds weekly on steel out to 1000 yards. My accuracy was falling off in my two 6.5 CM, both Krieger barreled.
I had been cleaning every 250 rounds with Butches and C4 and NYLON brushes per the instructions on the C4. My borescope revealed a real mess which I presumed was firecracking. Flecks of copper were embedded in the "firecracking". Scrubbed thoroughly with C4 and a nylon brush. Not much better and I tried again the next day. Attached is a picture of my cleaning patches.
The top two rows of patches were run thru as follows:
Two wet C4 patches, let set 5 minutes then used a nylon brush. 10 strokes. Let set five minutes and wiped with dry patches.
Third row was the same except used a bronze brush. I did this three times as seen in the photo. The borescope revealed my barrel was free of carbon (wasn't firecracking) and copper. Rifles are back shooting less than .4 MOA. I placed a order for 24 bronze brushes from Dewey. Have no use for a handful of nylon brushes now.
Edit. The blue you see on the patches is not from copper killer. The C4 carbon killer must have some copper killer also.
I had been cleaning every 250 rounds with Butches and C4 and NYLON brushes per the instructions on the C4. My borescope revealed a real mess which I presumed was firecracking. Flecks of copper were embedded in the "firecracking". Scrubbed thoroughly with C4 and a nylon brush. Not much better and I tried again the next day. Attached is a picture of my cleaning patches.
The top two rows of patches were run thru as follows:
Two wet C4 patches, let set 5 minutes then used a nylon brush. 10 strokes. Let set five minutes and wiped with dry patches.
Third row was the same except used a bronze brush. I did this three times as seen in the photo. The borescope revealed my barrel was free of carbon (wasn't firecracking) and copper. Rifles are back shooting less than .4 MOA. I placed a order for 24 bronze brushes from Dewey. Have no use for a handful of nylon brushes now.
Edit. The blue you see on the patches is not from copper killer. The C4 carbon killer must have some copper killer also.
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The only thing I thought was a problem was when you used copper dissolving solvents. A bronze brush better be softer than your barrel.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
The "picture" is back.
That thing has seen more Internet posts than the Zapruder film.
"Back and to the left... back and to the left...."
That thing has seen more Internet posts than the Zapruder film.
"Back and to the left... back and to the left...."
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
I originally used Butches only and nylon brushes. Then I tried C4 (carbon) with nylon. Did not interchange the chemicals.
Forum Boss
Administrator
This is a controversial topic.
Just want to add three things.
1. You might be surprised at the relatively conservative cleaning done by top-level F-Class shooters and long range shooters. Short-range benchrest is a different story.
2. You will definitely benefit by cleaning your barrel as soon as possible after the day's match or relay, BEFORE you leave the range. The carbon is much easier to remove in a warm barrel before the carbon hardens.
3. I have personally seen damage to barrel crowns from guys using bronze brushes which exited the barrel then were reversed and pulled back across the muzzle. I recommend removing the brush after exiting the barrel.
Yes I know many short-range 6PPC Hall of Famer's brush back and forth. But those guys typically toss their barrels in under 1000 rounds, and they may "touch up" the crown along the way.
Note what Frank from Bartlein posted above: "At times you have to use a brush. I get it. I don't drag the brush back over the crown. I only push the brush breech to muzzle. I'll unscrew the brush before pulling the rod back thru. We see a lot of damage to the edges of the muzzle crowns and part of it is because of dragging the brush back over the edge of the crown. The crown is the last thing the bullet touches when leaving the barrel. A damaged crown can effect accuracy."
There are many reasons to remove the brush and clean it, rather than drag debris and particles back in.
Just want to add three things.
1. You might be surprised at the relatively conservative cleaning done by top-level F-Class shooters and long range shooters. Short-range benchrest is a different story.
2. You will definitely benefit by cleaning your barrel as soon as possible after the day's match or relay, BEFORE you leave the range. The carbon is much easier to remove in a warm barrel before the carbon hardens.
3. I have personally seen damage to barrel crowns from guys using bronze brushes which exited the barrel then were reversed and pulled back across the muzzle. I recommend removing the brush after exiting the barrel.
Yes I know many short-range 6PPC Hall of Famer's brush back and forth. But those guys typically toss their barrels in under 1000 rounds, and they may "touch up" the crown along the way.
Note what Frank from Bartlein posted above: "At times you have to use a brush. I get it. I don't drag the brush back over the crown. I only push the brush breech to muzzle. I'll unscrew the brush before pulling the rod back thru. We see a lot of damage to the edges of the muzzle crowns and part of it is because of dragging the brush back over the edge of the crown. The crown is the last thing the bullet touches when leaving the barrel. A damaged crown can effect accuracy."
There are many reasons to remove the brush and clean it, rather than drag debris and particles back in.
6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
I will remember to remove the bronze brush before the return trip. Do you suggest cleaning the brush before reattaching to the rod for another pass? I don't mind putting in more time.
I'm RETIRED!!
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
IMO bronze brushes may be incorrectly blamed for damage caused by idiot operators who only use cheap ineffective bore guides. Watch the video I posted. Pay close attention to all the details. The guide is the best available. When you put on a new brush, do you slowly spin the rod to make sure the brush is straight, and if not bend it so that it is? There are a lot of things where the outcome depends on operator skill. Cleaning is one of them.
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urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
I have tried all of the methods. I have gone back to Butch's thick patches and Flitz on every cleaning. Boretech Eliminator and let sit for several minutes. Do that twice, then straight to 5 patches of Flitz short stroking the throat maybe 20 strokes each. Then wet patch with Birchwood Casey gun cleaner until clear.
Done.
Done.
And this is where I get confused. A bronze brush is completely safe for the bore but can damage the crown if the brush is pulled back through. Same steel, different results. What am I missing?
Forum Boss: on exit the spines in the brush are pointed down, having passed outward. When you reverse the brush, the points of the brush spines drive right on to the edge of the crown. I've inspected this with magnification and a damaged crown showed an edge that looked like sharks teeth.
Also it just makes sense to clean the brush before dragging it back in. This may add a minute or two to your routine. And if you clean while the barrel is warm you may well find you can get by with 4-5 wet patches followed by very, very few brush strokes.
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urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
It is the base that drags not the brush.
Forum Boss: See my comment re the brush spines.
I have never seen a problem with rifles with brakes going backwards as the brake aligns the brush. I have seen damage from the base of the brush on rifles with no brake.
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6.5 forever
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks for the input!
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
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