Bronze Brushes, Carbon & False Reading?

[Forum Boss]

Tip for a LOT less work:

1. If possible, while barrel is still warm, run 5-6 soaking wet (with solvent) patches through the bore.

2. After plugging chamber apply Wipe-Out foam. (I go through muzzle but you can also go via chamber with the hose that comes with can). Wait 15 minutes for bubbles to dissipate.

3. Re-apply Wipeout a second time, then plug barrel and chamber, and drive home. Try to transport gun in vertical position, muzzle below action.

4. After 4-5 hours, dry patch out.
Then brush with solvent minimally IF needed.


You may find you can brush a LOT less (70-80% less) and with a good, custom hand-lapped barrel you rarely need JB or Iosso.

————————
I don’t want to get into a big debate, and I understand that cleaning a warm barrel may be impractical for many disciplines.

But I have Kriegers, Brux, and Bartleins that shoot great this way — with way, way less brushing than most guys do.

I always recommend, for custom barrels, start with less aggressive methods and then see what you need. You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[jelenko]

OK. Here's a pic of the first patch from a brand new barrel, never test fired. The barrel it not attached to any action.

In preparation for the test, I did brush the barrel with C4, then patched it out until clean, then a wet patch [that came out clean], then a dry patch [that came out clean].

For the test, all I did was run a bronze brush back and forth through the barrel 5 times [1 time = down and back].

 

[ACF]

OK. Here's a pic of the first patch from a brand new barrel, never test fired. The barrel it not attached to any action.

In preparation for the test, I did brush the barrel with C4, then patched it out until clean, then a wet patch [that came out clean], then a dry patch [that came out clean].

For the test, all I did was run a bronze brush back and forth through the barrel 5 times [1 time = down and back].


View attachment 1357728

Bore tec C4 attacks copper, so maybe this is what you're seeing, the copper from the brush. I'm using ATF which does not attack copper, with a brush, and it seems to do a great job removing barrel fouling both copper and carbon. When I run a patch after the brush/ATF I'm thinking it's fouling coming out and not solvent eating away my brush. The ATF doesn't do much when left sitting in the bore but with a brush all kinds of $hit comes out. I heard ATF is loaded with detergents and maybe these detergents in combination with the brushing is what makes it work well. I do have a bore scope so I can see what's going on in the barrel. Try it out and see if it works for you. By the way, I know C4 is supposed to be a carbon remover but it also attacks copper, take a new brush on a paper towel and put some C4 on it and watch the green appear.

Chris

 

[Pawnee Bill]

Are any of you guys using a borescope to see what is really happening with your cleaning regimen? Without a borescope, cleaning is just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

 

[PopCharlie]

Are any of you guys using a borescope to see what is really happening with your cleaning regimen? Without a borescope, cleaning is just a shot in the dark (pun intended).

I use a borescope.
PopCharlie

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't scope them after every cleaning but I've done enough to know my method is working and what to expect, and do scope them periodically for cleanliness and overall condition.

 

[jelenko]

Bore tec C4 attacks copper, so maybe this is what you're seeing, the copper from the brush. I'm using ATF which does not attack copper, with a brush, and it seems to do a great job removing barrel fouling both copper and carbon. When I run a patch after the brush/ATF I'm thinking it's fouling coming out and not solvent eating away my brush. The ATF doesn't do much when left sitting in the bore but with a brush all kinds of $hit comes out. I heard ATF is loaded with detergents and maybe these detergents in combination with the brushing is what makes it work well. I do have a bore scope so I can see what's going on in the barrel. Try it out and see if it works for you. By the way, I know C4 is supposed to be a carbon remover but it also attacks copper, take a new brush on a paper towel and put some C4 on it and watch the green appear.

Chris

Note: The test was done with nothing in the barrel. C4 was used ONLY to clean the bore of the NEW, UNFIRED barrel. The C4 was patched out and a patch with alcohol was run through the barrel BEFORE the test.

Even if it were copper, the patch would be a dark shade of blue - not grayish.

PS. C4 didn't used to attack copper. But, the most recent bottle of it does => I'm looking for an alternative.

 

[wkdickinson]

OK. Here's a pic of the first patch from a brand new barrel, never test fired. The barrel it not attached to any action.

In preparation for the test, I did brush the barrel with C4, then patched it out until clean, then a wet patch [that came out clean], then a dry patch [that came out clean].

For the test, all I did was run a bronze brush back and forth through the barrel 5 times [1 time = down and back].


View attachment 1357728

WOW, this totally validates my results - with a borescoped "clean" barrel - thanks you VERY much!!!

 

[jelenko]

WOW, this totally validates my results - with a borescoped "clean" barrel - thanks you VERY much!!!

Yeah. I did a test almost the same as this one using Free All and bronze wool wrapped around a very well worn brush. I had cleaned the bore before so that, with a borescope, there was NO carbon visible.

Results of the test was every time the bore was brushed with the wool/brush and Free All, patches came out black.
I then rubbed the bronze wool on the clean outside of the stainless barrel, then wiped with a damp white cloth. Yup - cloth was black.

 

[Shooter13]

I use Montana extreme

Is that the copper killer? MAN that stuff will kill you nose! I opened the can and thought I'd pass out!

 

[K22]

Bore tec C4 attacks copper, so maybe this is what you're seeing, the copper from the brush. I'm using ATF which does not attack copper, with a brush, and it seems to do a great job removing barrel fouling both copper and carbon. When I run a patch after the brush/ATF I'm thinking it's fouling coming out and not solvent eating away my brush. The ATF doesn't do much when left sitting in the bore but with a brush all kinds of $hit comes out. I heard ATF is loaded with detergents and maybe these detergents in combination with the brushing is what makes it work well. I do have a bore scope so I can see what's going on in the barrel. Try it out and see if it works for you. By the way, I know C4 is supposed to be a carbon remover but it also attacks copper, take a new brush on a paper towel and put some C4 on it and watch the green appear.

Chris

Interesting - did they change the formulation of C4? I get some reaction but it's very slight. The large bottle I have was purchased in early 2020.

When I had to switch from Shooters Choice to an odorless solvent, I talked to Bore Tech Rep a while back about using C4 and a bronze brush because I wanted the mechanical action of a bronze brush to aid in removing carbon. He indicated that C4 does remove some copper but not much and will only slightly react with the brush.

I've found that C4 performs much like Shooter's Choice in that it does a good job of removing carbon and a little copper. At least in my rifles, I discovered that they shoot more consistently and without first shot flyers if I maintain some copper equilibrium in the bore.

I discovered this when I use the Bore Tech two-part system, i.e., C4 for carbon removal, then Cu+2. The Cu+2 did a great job removing copper, but I developed flyers, and it took several rounds to re-establish group consistency. Thus, I went back to just using C4 and a bronze brush which has resulted in much better shooting consistency.

 

[6MMsteve]

Is that the copper killer? MAN that stuff will kill you nose! I opened the can and thought I'd pass out!

it won't burn your nose like a 8 million gallon catch pond of liquid cow patters

 

[jelenko]

Interesting - did they change the formulation of C4? I get some reaction but it's very slight. The large bottle I have was purchased in early 2020.

When I had to switch from Shooters Choice to an odorless solvent, I talked to Bore Tech Rep a while back about using C4 and a bronze brush because I wanted the mechanical action of a bronze brush to aid in removing carbon. He indicated that C4 does remove some copper but not much and will only slightly react with the brush.

I've found that C4 performs much like Shooter's Choice in that it does a good job of removing carbon and a little copper. At least in my rifles, I discovered that they shoot more consistently and without first shot flyers if I maintain some copper equilibrium in the bore.

I discovered this when I use the Bore Tech two-part system, i.e., C4 for carbon removal, then Cu+2. The Cu+2 did a great job removing copper, but I developed flyers, and it took several rounds to re-establish group consistency. Thus, I went back to just using C4 and a bronze brush which has resulted in much better shooting consistency.

I think they have. The bottle of C4 I bought just a couple months ago is eating my bronze brushes.
I've used C4 for about 4-5 years. Before this most recent bottle, it's always showed no blue at all in regular use. If left in the bore for hours and hours, I might have noticed a bit of blue.

ETA. I'm going to ask Boretech if they did change the formula or just screwed up on a batch.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Note: The test was done with nothing in the barrel. C4 was used ONLY to clean the bore of the NEW, UNFIRED barrel. The C4 was patched out and a patch with alcohol was run through the barrel BEFORE the test.

Even if it were copper, the patch would be a dark shade of blue - not grayish.

PS. C4 didn't used to attack copper. But, the most recent bottle of it does => I'm looking for an alternative.

You might try Ed's Red. Google it if you're not familiar with it. It's very effective on carbon with a little bronze brush thrown in. If you're worried about the acetone, you can mix it without using the acetone but it works better with it, IME. Pretty dang good and it's cheap to boot. The ATF is the key. I've still never seen a dirty automatic transmission, yet. Lol! ATF alone is very near being the perfect gun lubricant/protectant and the Ed's Red cleaner is hard to beat, too. Don't expect it to do much with copper but my regimen is to go after the carbon first, the hit the copper after exposing it to a good copper cleaner..fwiw. It works well for me. YMMV.

 

[DaveTooley]

I've got a project right now that involves 6 year old muzzle brakes that lived inside a suppressor. Talk about carbon. I have some soaking in GM top engine cleaner. Report and pics to follow.

 

[PopCharlie]

Is that the copper killer? MAN that stuff will kill you nose! I opened the can and thought I'd pass out!

Yes, it's the copper killer. It does put the hurt on your nose

 

[BoydAllen]

Back in the day, we used to make "blue goop" using full strength 28% ammonia. With that you wanted to be outdoors with a breeze blowing the fumes away from you. I do not recommend it...just sayin'

 

[6MMsteve]

the bronze brush is key to removing carbon, I'm shooting a new barrel now and shot it 16x then cleaned, but I forgot to use my bronze brush, it was good n hot too, barrel and outside, but I scoped it after and I seen the carbon streaks and just flat forgot to use the bronze brush no excuses

 

[Ned Ludd]

All, thank you for your input and suggestions.

Follow up question...

Can anybody report that they can give 5-10 passes of a bronze brush through their barrel and have the next patch through come out clean?

I mentioned this in the [excruciatingly] long post I added to this thread yesterday. Using Free All combined with bronze brush treatment on an unfired barrel blank yielded perfectly white patches.

The same treatment with a fired barrel yielded fairly dark gray patches as shown in the photo attached to that post. I guess it is possible that there could be some way that running a brush through an unfired barrel could yield some gray color on the patch (i.e. color that was not due to removed carbon). That was my thinking also and the primary reason I posted about the Free All treatment. However, an unfired barrel in my hands did not yield any color after treatment with a bronze brush. So in my mind, you'd have to go pretty far out on a limb to explain how brush treatment could release dark gray color that was not carbon. Nonetheless, what I'm seeing on patches from the Free All/bronze brush treatment somehow don't look like carbon to me, although it's difficult to explain that observation clearly. You know, it's gray, it's dark. But it does look subtly different to my eyes.

If this dark stuff isn't carbon, at this point I don't know what it actually is with any certainty. It could be some abrasion-dependent "material" released by the interaction between the bronze brush and the bore.

 

[JFrank]

Does anyone put Alcohol on a patch after cleaning ?