Are Ranks of Shooters Growing or Shrinking?
- Thread starter Bottom Fodder
- Start date
urbanrifleman
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I think that if you live in a society where practicing for war is considered a game you've got other problems. Serious problems.
That's certainly a very good point. I also think that extreme concepts of home defense fall into a similar category.
Safety is my concern and as I look at various competitions there are problems.
urbanrifleman
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I do think it's just a matter of time before Americans get the war that they've been wishing for so bad... And not some war where we just go kick the crap out of a bunch of people who don't have the same toys we have, but a war with people that have the same toys... and are on our property.
But wars are not fought with ammunition and guns, an army marches on its belly.
I agree with what Trump said, I have never seen a time where there is so, much passion for this country and so much hatred. I hope things don’t escalate and get out of hand. I'd like to think we can learn.
Back on my safety issue I went up the street to look at photographing a patch of sun flowers. The owner of the house tell me that the gun dealers about a mile and a half away (as the crow flies) who runs a little range for self defense training, a tactical firearms course is replacing a window and some siding on the neighbors house a mile on the other side of the range. This is second hand information that I'll confirm with the owner of the shot house. The blind leading the blind?
This is the state of nearly every profession I come into contact with. I know the younger generation has trouble understanding this but we old people are the only ones who have the knowledge of the way it was when things worked.
Safety and training are basics and we old farts have proof that we understand it since we lived to get old in environments that are not conducive to long life.
ronsatspokane
Gold $$ Contributor
The problem of "practicing for war" is many orders of magnitude greater than that represented by firearms owners involved in 3 gun, Across the Course or PRS or even those blasting up bottles and appliances at the local sand pit with AR's and defense shotguns.
We've got a couple of generations, millions of children, trained on first person shooter games who have no idea what the structure of their government is, what their responsibilities as citizens are or what the laws of their state and nation are. They are being told that they may not be the gender their parents put on their birth certificates and that the world is going to end if their parents don't stop heating their homes and driving to work. They have never developed the verbal portion of their brains because they have their heads buried in cell phones all day long absorbing TikToc and Facebook posts while posting selfies of themselves. They can't communicate and they can't think but they are narcissistic in the extreme. In other words, a couple of generations educated to be stupid, pushed by society into a self centered world view bordering on mental illness and trained to kill using virtual reality tools. Now couple that reality with the fact that there are no consequences for bad behavior and the definition of bad behavior had become any behavior associated with traditional values like hard work, love of country and faith in a greater power. It is not hard to see where this ends. It does not end in war with external powers, it ends in the collapse of civilization from the inside. External powers who have designs on our territory or economy only need wait for us to do it for them.
Will and Ariel Durant wrote the 11 volume Story of Civilization that covers the path of civilization from pre-history to the start of WWII. That is more than many people have the time to assimilate (I've only been through the first 5) but they later wrote a summary titled Lessons of History. In that they cover the life cycle of civilizations. It is worth a read. I recommend the audio version as it has recordings of both Will and Ariel in their later years.
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
It can be very intimidating for a new shooter to walk up to the line and see all the nice and expensive equipment there.
It could be very inspiring for them on the other hand too.
That's where we old guys come in, we can teach a new shooter how to look for a quality budget friend base firearm, use it well and what additions are practical.
I believe once you're using a standard iron sighted rifle well you're in a far better position to judge whether a force modifier is what it claims to be.
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
Right, I’m a planJane do more with less kinda guy. You can earn minimum wage and afford what I bring to the line lol
Well we can start with “ Ok level with me here”. Has an immediate connotation that I wouldn’t. So I’m forced to say “Ok, I will.”
I’m more than three times your age.
Thank you for your service. Our length of time in the service is the same.
I didn’t start shooting until I was 10.
I’ve shot very few matches and that was many years ago.
Scopes? No. I’ve had many. Found that the less expensive were way more to my liking. High end ones like a March I couldn’t wait to sell. Way too dark.
Bench rifles? Sure I have a few. With 60 years of working behind me I better be able to afford what I like.
“Proving my worth “? Well that is always been to myself, not for display.
So we should be on a level now.
When i became involved is bench shooting two things happened. I found some of those old men were really good. Second, ( and I’m not sure how this happened) I learned to listen intently and be respectful. Ron Whiteker, Ed Ferguson,and Dave Sarser were 3 of the most knowledgeable and exceptional shooters I have ever seen. They were ‘old men’ to me but man did I learn plenty.
Do you run into the Jeff Coopers with their whistle and booming voices? Their air of superiority ?
Sure. But you just skip on by them.
Don’t write off every who is older as being a pain in the ass. So don’t assume you’ve heard every conversation. Letting everything in one ear and out the other is self limiting and self defeating.
I’m only upset those 3 man have passed on some years ago. And actually I’m still hearing them.
You only ‘think’ you know the outcome.
BTW: aside from being a great bench rest shooter, an unreal trap guy, and champion pistol competitor, David Sarser was a concert violinist with the NBC Philharmonic Orchestra.
You never know who’ll you meet.
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What's amazing is how much the cheap firearms I bought when we were a young family are worth now. A hundred and some odd dollar 30 carbine now $1,200 bucks. WTF!
A great training tool today!
Here's an old man story. My experiance with the 223 was with the 5.56 x 45 in the military, I got a CAR 15 after my M2 Carbine. Years later I got a 6MM Remington for varmints but had issues with report so I got a HR break open to test the 223 for varmints, paid $175.
After I found out how I could make a 223 useful for varmints I bought a Howa 1500 in 223, I gave the HR to my son so he could train his kids. The Howa was kit varmint gun put together buy the dealer, $200+. Looking at scopes and seeing ridiculous concepts, ($700+) no way in hell for a rifle of that limited range. I happen upon a used Simmons 3 x 18, 50mm while at a dealer that was brought in used.
The 223 has energy and wind issues, especially when your 400 yard target is just a bit bigger than your fist. The Simmons is a not a great scope, useful, not awful but I've used it effectively out to the limit of a 223 on varmints. I've made 500 yard body hits on chucks and 400 yard head shots.
So the old guy advises that you buy scopes based on their ability to be effective as a sighting mechanism based on the size of your target and within the effective range of you rifle. You don't always need an expensive scope.
Yes I believe if you need more than iron sights to effectively hit a deer or elk at 300 yards you need more practice. Save the money you'd spend on a scope and buy ammo or a reloading setup. That does not mean you're stupid to use a scope but if your scope fails in the field you have the skills and the backup iron sight to save your hunt. A hunt cost BUCKS!
BTW David Tubbs shot 1 point less than a perfect score at 1,000 yards with iron sights.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
Many of us are old enough to remember when Elvis burst onto the scene. My goodness, you would have thought that the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse were saddling up the horses and getting ready to ride.
Then a decade and a half later, the Beatles Hit the scene. All of those now 30 year olds couldn’t see why all of those “kids” were screaming and acting so crazy……..just like they did.
As generations change, the previous one invariably can’t seem to understand why the younger generation likes the things they like and do the things they do. And Vice-a Versa.
It bleeds over into all walks of life.
The “good old days” were probably not as good as we would like to remember, and ”modern times” are ripe with a whole new set of problems.
If both young and old can’t seem to come to grips with that, maybe the problem lies with each.
Havent popped in to read this thread in a few days and to no surprise gun owners are doing gun owner things. Young people are wussies old people are rude, kids are worthless mush minded computer addicts, etc etc.
We as gun owners need to figure out how to come together and respect everyone's particular firearm interest under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment or were gonna keep losing it. Who cares if some 19 year old shows up with his call of duty replica ar15 mindlessly blowing ammo down range. Thank god hes at the range and not being stupid. Who cares that some old fella with his 20lb rifle mounted in a rest is cranky that the kid is "wasting ammo." Be happy the old guy is there to learn from. Were too dang quick to pick on each other because we dont like how someone else does something.
Somebody in this thread asked "what are you doing about it"? As far as declining numbers and here we are 9 pages in and Ive seen very little in the way of suggestions for growth. The bulk is bickering about age.
In my experience a good majority of those first person shooter kids will jump at the opportunity to shoot a gun like they use in their game. Ive taken quite a few family members, friends kids to the range to shoot. Some are adults now. Some shoot regularly some dont. But none would of been able to say yes if I stereotyped them all as facebook, tik tok homebodies. Ive also learned a fair amount from a few of the old heads at my conservation club. Ive also heard a ton of ridiculous garbage. Theres room for all ages, races, interest, budgets and personalities in gun ownership.
We as gun owners need to figure out how to come together and respect everyone's particular firearm interest under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment or were gonna keep losing it. Who cares if some 19 year old shows up with his call of duty replica ar15 mindlessly blowing ammo down range. Thank god hes at the range and not being stupid. Who cares that some old fella with his 20lb rifle mounted in a rest is cranky that the kid is "wasting ammo." Be happy the old guy is there to learn from. Were too dang quick to pick on each other because we dont like how someone else does something.
Somebody in this thread asked "what are you doing about it"? As far as declining numbers and here we are 9 pages in and Ive seen very little in the way of suggestions for growth. The bulk is bickering about age.
In my experience a good majority of those first person shooter kids will jump at the opportunity to shoot a gun like they use in their game. Ive taken quite a few family members, friends kids to the range to shoot. Some are adults now. Some shoot regularly some dont. But none would of been able to say yes if I stereotyped them all as facebook, tik tok homebodies. Ive also learned a fair amount from a few of the old heads at my conservation club. Ive also heard a ton of ridiculous garbage. Theres room for all ages, races, interest, budgets and personalities in gun ownership.
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
ronsatspokane
Gold $$ Contributor
On this front I've had some success. One young software engineer asked me to teach him and his wife how to shoot. I did. Took them both through the material most gun safety classes cover and had them try different fire arms starting with a single shot 22 rifle and ending with a semi auto pistol. At the beginning of the day their eyes were the size of pie pans when they held a gun. By the end of the training session they looked more like seasoned pros. He called some months later and said he was going to get into this long range shooting thing called F Class. He did. He has since been to nearly every US Nationals, several Berger Southwest Nationals and the world championships when it was held in Canada a couple years back. He has cost me a lot of money trying to keep up with him.
Took another kid, who fit the stereotype of a youth gamer to a tee, out for a round of trap along with a bunch of other people from work. He'd played a lot of first person shooter games but had never held a gun of any kind. Taught him how to hold a shotgun, maintain his sight picture, move from the hips to follow the target and how to lead the target. Let him use a Browning Auto 5 so the recoil didn't shock him too much. Kid shot 20 out of 25 from the 16 yard line the first time. Held very close to that through a couple more rounds. Those of us who knew the game had never seen anyone do that well their first time out. He wants to go again and bring his wife.
Dragged one of my nephews into an F Class match. This kid is one of the hardest working kids I know. The opposite of the stereotype. He loved it but he does not have the time or the money to participate on a regular basis. Maybe when his nest building years are somewhat done and the kids are out on their own he'll have the time and money.
Three very different kids (at the time they were in their 20's) with three different outcomes and commitments to the sport of shooting and for very different reasons.
That is fantastic. Its our obligation to share our knowledge and experience with the youth. I understand some refuse to learn. Thats unfortunate but a lot just dont understand or know whats available to them out there. They only know what theyre exposed to and unfortunately theyre exposed to a ton of ignorance through social media and biased news networks, other uninformed adults and much more.
Some have interest but need guidance. Theres tons of misinformation being spewed out there from fudd lore, to wannabe range commandos to outright lies.
I think itd be great if clubs started offering a shoot for people who dont own anything or perhaps do but it just lives in the closet. Some type of shoot where people are there for fun, to educate, to learn not just compete.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
At our
Last year we had decent turnouts in Factory. And, (this is very important), I emphasize that they should in no way compare their equipment and level to those of us who compete on a regular basis. That would be a formula for discouragement.
Compare yourself, and your Rifle to like shooters using similar equipment.
Tomball Club Matches, we have a Factory Class.And we mean Factory Rifles suited for field use.
Last year we had decent turnouts in Factory. And, (this is very important), I emphasize that they should in no way compare their equipment and level to those of us who compete on a regular basis. That would be a formula for discouragement.
Compare yourself, and your Rifle to like shooters using similar equipment.
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