ronsatspokane
Gold $$ Contributor
Ouch! Is this before or after the Bill of Rights are revoked?
Are Ranks of Shooters Growing or Shrinking?
- Thread starter Bottom Fodder
- Start date
Bottom Fodder
Silver $$ Contributor
But I think your right
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
I'd say the largest stumbling block is when you show up to a benchrest competition and they tell you that you need to have about eight grand to get started... haha
"Hey Mom can I borrow 8 grand?"
Yep, 8 grand can buy a skydiving canopy, video gear and enough lessons for an 'A' license, or a nice used souped up side-by-side, a motor-cross bike for single track, or a lot of camping, hiking, climbing gear, or a super fast gaming computer. There are a lot of sport type activities to draw the attention of teens, 20's and 30 year old kids that are both mind and body challenging and many fast paced.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
My folks never spent $80 on any of my activities when I was a kid. Much less $8,000.
When I bought parts for my BMX bike or my skateboard it was like I was asking for the crown jewels.
Things have really changed since the 1970s hahaha. Boy howdy.
Pretty much the same, at 8 years old I started mowing grass and shoveling snow to earn the money for bikes, hunting, trapping, and fishing gear. But I'm also thinking of the young adults that are maybe married and raising kids, they don't have 8 grand disposable cash, but they can finance a quad or side-by-side and hit the desert or woods for a weekend outing with their friends and family. Of course the shooting sports aren't dead, it just seems to me that some of the less action type shooting lacks drawing attention to other more rewarding sports.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
Honestly I think people love shooting off benches and making small groups. At least all the people I take to shoot seem to love it. The benchrest guys did it to themselves by making their equipment so restrictive. There was no effort really made to move with the times and then when COVID hit the suppliers just completely abandoned that small niche market. At least that's the way I see it. I'm not sure there's any of the mainstream companies that are making anything for short line bench rest
Granted, BR is not a spectator sport but if you think it's boring...you're not doing it right. When I'm shooting well, I get up from the bench with my hands shaking like a leaf...especially in tough conditions. I'm that into what I'm doing at the time. That feeling is one of the best things about the sport but the people are absolutely top spot holders. The game offers excitement, if you want it. No, it's not running around banging away at steel plates or hostage targets but I played that game too. It was more of a strategic game, to beat the course designer, than a shooting game. The winners were the ones who figured out the most efficient way to shoot stages. Nothing wrong with that but I didn't get the same feeling that I do shooting BR. Different strokes but you get from it, what you put into it.
Loading ammo doesn't have to be as laborious as some make it in short range. The real work isn't so bad at all. It's shooting a lot and practicing well. I started paying attention to all the little brass prep steps and the difference they made on the target a long time ago and started putting less time into that and more time into good quality practice and shooting more. It paid off with a national championship. Life has gotten in the way for a few years and my lack of work...err shooting and good practice is showing and I suck, by my own standards. I can fix that but it's gonna take some time to get back.
As for equipment, it matters but a good shooting mentor can be a huge help with that. He can shoot your gun and tell you if your gun and equipment are competitive as well as help with load work if that's where the problem is, and do that in a day's time. It's not about shooting zero's but about not screwing up. Yes, we all want that magical bbl that shoots tiny but realistically, ain't no such thing as a bbl that shoots through a switch in the flags. A solid sub .2 tune will win a lot of fake wood, group and score. It won't win them all but neither will the most accurate gun on the planet. Something about the Indian and how bad he wants it.
Loading ammo doesn't have to be as laborious as some make it in short range. The real work isn't so bad at all. It's shooting a lot and practicing well. I started paying attention to all the little brass prep steps and the difference they made on the target a long time ago and started putting less time into that and more time into good quality practice and shooting more. It paid off with a national championship. Life has gotten in the way for a few years and my lack of work...err shooting and good practice is showing and I suck, by my own standards. I can fix that but it's gonna take some time to get back.
As for equipment, it matters but a good shooting mentor can be a huge help with that. He can shoot your gun and tell you if your gun and equipment are competitive as well as help with load work if that's where the problem is, and do that in a day's time. It's not about shooting zero's but about not screwing up. Yes, we all want that magical bbl that shoots tiny but realistically, ain't no such thing as a bbl that shoots through a switch in the flags. A solid sub .2 tune will win a lot of fake wood, group and score. It won't win them all but neither will the most accurate gun on the planet. Something about the Indian and how bad he wants it.
rwj
Gold $$ Contributor
It is not an insult unless one is comparing it to “run and gun” format competitions in which I used to participate. Bench rest presents its own challenges, but they are not particularly physically demanding. It works well for those of us who still love shooting, but have moved on in years past our “prime” condition!
It's not that it is boring to me, it can be boring to many kids and younger adults. Some of them may become BR shooters when they age, or are led into it by parents, family, or friends. I was only pointing one reason why the participation may not be growing.
But I will point out that you assumption I'm not doing it right is a far stretch, nonetheless I enjoyed reading your opinion post.
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
The title of this thread says "shooters", so I guess I'll be OK using it as a general term aside from competition.
I live out in the great wide west where we'all used to be able to shoot whenever, and pretty much where ever we wanted. There weren't official ranges around, but plenty of places where you could go within a mile or two from town and shoot as much as you pleased. If you wanted to shoot "bench rest" you better take a bench with you. If you wanted to shoot in bench rest competition you drove one or two hundred miles away to a place where it existed.
This sadly changed for us as our wide open west became populated, developed, fenced, and unsafe for any kind of long range shooting in most directions. And in my particular area, the only "shooting range" is about 35 miles away from our main town.
I think we're in a kind of transition period where most folks can find somewhere to shoot closer than that 35 miles, so they don't get involved in the organized events which the local shooting club holds. Also the kids like me who grew up shooting wherever we wanted pretty much no longer exist.
I can say with certainty that the numbers of shooters around here are much lower than the good ol days, even though there are five times the population there used to be.
jd
I live out in the great wide west where we'all used to be able to shoot whenever, and pretty much where ever we wanted. There weren't official ranges around, but plenty of places where you could go within a mile or two from town and shoot as much as you pleased. If you wanted to shoot "bench rest" you better take a bench with you. If you wanted to shoot in bench rest competition you drove one or two hundred miles away to a place where it existed.
This sadly changed for us as our wide open west became populated, developed, fenced, and unsafe for any kind of long range shooting in most directions. And in my particular area, the only "shooting range" is about 35 miles away from our main town.
I think we're in a kind of transition period where most folks can find somewhere to shoot closer than that 35 miles, so they don't get involved in the organized events which the local shooting club holds. Also the kids like me who grew up shooting wherever we wanted pretty much no longer exist.
I can say with certainty that the numbers of shooters around here are much lower than the good ol days, even though there are five times the population there used to be.
jdI think it's a great disservice to benchrest and other precision shooting to suggest that a truck-full of gear and a big budget are required to get started and compete. I'm coming at this from a 1k BR perspective, by the way.
In my own experience, I have found that most of what has made me shoot smaller is my own increasing skill. In the past year and a half or so, I've been eliminating steps in my routine and testing what effect it has. Using this methodology, I've eliminated A LOT of processes that simply didn't do anything measurable or repeatable. When I started doing them thinking it helped, I didn't realize the improvement was in my shooting skill alone and the new prep step actually did nothing.
I think a great example of this is the change in mindset in recent years towards no-turn necks. Looky there! ~$300 that a new-comer should forgo in a neck turning setup. As much as I enjoy using my arbor press to seat bullets, A-B testing with my Rockchucker and Forester micrometer dies told me definitively that it did not measurably improve my groups. Well there's an arbor press and seating die, or another ~$300 that could be left for later. Likewise, a SEB isn't the only competitive option; a Bald Eagle is entirely competitive and saves $1000. You don't need a March Magesta, a Golden Eagle is competitive. There's another $2600.
The list of needed equipment to be competitive is pretty short and the bill is more palatable than 8 grand. Everything else is just extra to try and buy an advantage and we should be careful to introduce it that way to new shooters.
In my own experience, I have found that most of what has made me shoot smaller is my own increasing skill. In the past year and a half or so, I've been eliminating steps in my routine and testing what effect it has. Using this methodology, I've eliminated A LOT of processes that simply didn't do anything measurable or repeatable. When I started doing them thinking it helped, I didn't realize the improvement was in my shooting skill alone and the new prep step actually did nothing.
I think a great example of this is the change in mindset in recent years towards no-turn necks. Looky there! ~$300 that a new-comer should forgo in a neck turning setup. As much as I enjoy using my arbor press to seat bullets, A-B testing with my Rockchucker and Forester micrometer dies told me definitively that it did not measurably improve my groups. Well there's an arbor press and seating die, or another ~$300 that could be left for later. Likewise, a SEB isn't the only competitive option; a Bald Eagle is entirely competitive and saves $1000. You don't need a March Magesta, a Golden Eagle is competitive. There's another $2600.
The list of needed equipment to be competitive is pretty short and the bill is more palatable than 8 grand. Everything else is just extra to try and buy an advantage and we should be careful to introduce it that way to new shooters.
I've said something to this effect for some time now. That being, new shooters with nearby and available places to shoot probably look at BR shooters and think, how crazy to drive that far to go shoot guns. They probably have a legit point, to be honest.
That message was on the IBS website back in May 31st. I've known Jeff since I first started shooting but honestly there is nothing he can do or anyone else for that matter can do to fix the lack of shooters at matches. Just way too many factors effecting attendance.
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I can barley afford to compete a few times a year. Even in college as a starving college kid working part time doing roofing, windows, farm work I could afford to shoot at least 3 days a week during the Summer. I could afford to travel to compete regionally and that included a year round membership to a gun club. When I worked full time after graduation I could actually afford to shoot 5 days a week if I had the time. Ammo was not a significant cost. During the warm months in Michigan in college I reloaded once I got my first apartment in 1995. I could easily burn through 60 rounds of 300 Win Mag ammo, 300 rounds of 22LR, 40 rounds of 44 Mag and couple boxes of 12ga. on an average range day 3X a week or more and not something out of the ordinary and not bat an eye.
Fast forward to today ammo is an insane cost as is fuel, lodging and food. The registration fews for competitions has also gotten out of hand. I am 50 and all of my kids are living on their own and I can not afford to do what I did as a poor working full time college student in the 1990's!
Give an idea in 1998 when my oldest son was born I Purchased a Winchester Super Grade in 338 Win Mag from Gander Mountain on my lunch break in Swartz Creek Michigan for $475 and I also purchased a Burris Signature Series 3x9 scope at the same time new for $169 and that was their premium line back then and made in the USA. Oh it was a Pre-64 Model 70 in just gorgeous walnut and deep dark bluing! I think I have a bag 50 pcs of 300 Win Mag brass as well from around the same time $16 for 50pcs of 300WM brass at a retail store. For the record back in the 1990's my gunsmith was cheaper than the big box stores the problem was it took him weeks to get something and you never knew if he could get it with out checking first. His shop was also a 1 hour drive from home which was a pain in the rear, It is not like today where the big box stores are almost always the cheapest by a large amount compared to a local gun store. Back then you went to the big box store because you could walk in and walk out with exactly what you wanted because they had everything you could want in stock ready for sale.
Fast forward to today ammo is an insane cost as is fuel, lodging and food. The registration fews for competitions has also gotten out of hand. I am 50 and all of my kids are living on their own and I can not afford to do what I did as a poor working full time college student in the 1990's!
Give an idea in 1998 when my oldest son was born I Purchased a Winchester Super Grade in 338 Win Mag from Gander Mountain on my lunch break in Swartz Creek Michigan for $475 and I also purchased a Burris Signature Series 3x9 scope at the same time new for $169 and that was their premium line back then and made in the USA. Oh it was a Pre-64 Model 70 in just gorgeous walnut and deep dark bluing! I think I have a bag 50 pcs of 300 Win Mag brass as well from around the same time $16 for 50pcs of 300WM brass at a retail store. For the record back in the 1990's my gunsmith was cheaper than the big box stores the problem was it took him weeks to get something and you never knew if he could get it with out checking first. His shop was also a 1 hour drive from home which was a pain in the rear, It is not like today where the big box stores are almost always the cheapest by a large amount compared to a local gun store. Back then you went to the big box store because you could walk in and walk out with exactly what you wanted because they had everything you could want in stock ready for sale.
I agree with you. When Jeff Stover was the IBS president, I sent him an email letting him know just how dissatisfied I was with him for not making an appearance at the 2017 IBS 100-200 Score Nationals in Weikert, PA. I thought it was an insult since he lives not too far from that range. If it was a group match it would of been a different story. I'll give Jeff credit, he did travel all the way down to Orangeburg, SC on October 19th of 2019 and shot with us at the 100 meter portion of the IBS 100-200 Meter Nationals. That was the first time that I met the guy. We sat down and ate a great meal of Prime Rib together. After talking with him he turned out to be a very nice guy. I was impressed.
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The paperwork requirements (ATF form6, I believe) are not too onerous, but are still a PITA, and the attitudes of the Border Patrol guys can be a little hard to take. I am fortunate in that, because I am an American citizen, I don't need the paperwork, but the cost of travel and the time available are both still factors. It is somewhat easier for Americans coming to Canada to shoot, but in either direction, we no longer have an open border.
Ultimately, I think the cost and time are the primary factors for established shooters. WH
I live in an ocean of public land, so ranges have little to do with shooting. I see and meet more people than ever out there, but most just got their first 9 or AR. They will blast some trash at 10 to 100 yards a few times and that's it. Shooting has always been expensive. I used to shoot skeet and hunt birds. Now I reload rifle and hunt PDs. I have no kids or wife, so I can piss away piles of money on my hobby. If I had those responsibilities though, inflation would have crushed me by now. Consider this though. Shooting is expensive, but is it really that expensive? Most guys I know my age have a sxs, a quad, toy hauler, boat, lifted diesel truck. Its like 250k of toys. I will be dead long before I spend that shooting! If there is a decline in shooters at the range, I think folks are just too busy on FB and working a 3rd job to offset Bidenomics...
Speaking of expenses ?? I have a 12 year old grandson I now have
involved. Youth do not have the means to get involved. In order for
any organization to continue to exist, there must be a seed planted
along the line. and watered frequently, which means digging deeper
into your pockets and finding that little extra time.
involved. Youth do not have the means to get involved. In order for
any organization to continue to exist, there must be a seed planted
along the line. and watered frequently, which means digging deeper
into your pockets and finding that little extra time.
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