Are Ranks of Shooters Growing or Shrinking?

[David Milisock]

I respect that you have an opinion and I will continue to read it with enthusiasm. My opinion is a bit different. I don't think kids and older teens and many in their 20's and 30's that have not been in the military are interested in shooting if they have to study the Taliban vs U.S. Forces or understand combat differences between WWII, Korea, Vietnam or the Middle East. If they wish to study history and current events I would encourage that, but not make it a prerequisite to be recognized as a valuable member of the shooting fraternity. Perhaps I am reading your words wrong, but you make reference to fighting, combat, and defense in a lot of your post.

Make shooting hard work and no play and there will be few interested. Make it enjoyable and those who take a serious interest will voluntarily invest with hard work to attain their goals.

If it's a safety issue it needs to be addressed and from my perspective the youth do not have a corner on poor safety conduct, that award goes equally to all age groups. Public, private, and club ranges are all part responsible and from what I have seen many have woefully failed in that respect. Certainly not all, but many. Safety starts on the home court and when we see a safety violation as leaders, after making the correction, we need to seriously consider if we have made a failure. Many times I have seen those responsible for safety blame only the violator.

As for high tech, it's here to stay. Yes the ability to perform the old way certainly has value, but between all the wars you have made an example it was high tech that paved the way to victory being pushed by determined blood and guts. Kids today grow up with high tech, but to them it is not high tech, it's just normal stuff, why not use it to trap their interest?

As for the monetary investment being to extreme for some of the younger men and women, that is understandable in most all sports and what we have to face in everyday life. So maybe a youngster cannot afford to compete in F Class or Benchrest with the top shooters. Maybe they can enjoy shooting a pistol or a carbine or a rimfire, and maybe as they grow up and build their career they can afford better equipment. Make it enjoyable and attainable on any of the many levels and a certain percentage will take to playing games and some will make a competition out of it, and from that you have a new competitor.

I reference tactical because it's where I see the most egregious errors in competition and training, I would list handgun as next. Benchrest, precision shooting, cowboy and non tactical shotgun sports (except for a few competitors) seem to be a better ordered lot. They're safe and their equipment is not promoted as self/home defense.

Handgun and tactical rifles/shotguns are regularly promoted as self/home defense firearms by careless individuals. That situation requires an entirely different mindset.

I've seen some shit! However If I'm with my family in a dangerous situation involving gun fire and we all use our heads and get everyone to safety and never use a firearm I WON, WE WON! All fights are to be avoided.

The moment that you fire your weapon in a fight you've lost, the best you can do after that is survive.

Training does not start with the firearm it starts with how to use your mind. If your concerned about safety, if you can be responsible try a dog, a 20 to 40 pound dog that barks is a great security measure.

Using your head, avoid confrontation, be aware of your situation, there are hundreds of great safety considerations never discussed. What gets marketed is bad in most cases, lots of cheap FMJ, higher capacity firearms, FBI penetration requirements, but near zero consideration for possible collateral injury. If you're a decent human injuring or killing someone makes you sick, doing it by stupidity is devastating, having to do it to save a life makes it a litte better but we need to talk about avoidance more that gadgets.

I understand technology, I have 8 computers in my home and made my living with it, yes it's here to stay but like a child, they're born, learn to roll over, then crawl, then stand, then walk and finally run.

Master the basics, it builds your confidence, augment your skills with innovations, study every technique possible. (Read Rex Applegate as well as everyone else.) When needed this skill set will help you avoid problems and if unavoidable deal with them in a manner that will help you emotionally deal with the consequences. Those consequences will not be good.

We go to the range and we play games, especially with self defense firearms and that's fun and good but we're forgetting that it's never really a game.

 

[JFrank]

When I was young and wore hippy clothes and listened to Janis Joplin and Jimmy Hendrix, the older generation said the same damn thing. Now I’m old and say what they said.
Go figure.

 

[CharlieNC]

Ok level with me here. With the knowledge I'm 25 I've only been shooting since I was like 8 ,only have 6yr of military service, I don't shoot matches , I don't have any fancy bench rest stuff ( hell 90% of my stuff probably cost less then one scope on most of your rigs ) or trophies or anything to "prove my worth" , honestly what is gonna come out my mouth that 70% of the people here will take semi seriously or find any worth in ? Seriously say I typed up say a 8 paragraph essay on the ins and out of stuff , in reality how my people are gonna do more then go " who the hell is this snot nosed brat trying to tell me I'm wrong ?" Because imma be honest every time I've legitimately tried to have a conversation dealing with somthing like this it's almost ALWAYS ended up the same . Hence me saying I kinda know where this kinda conversation goes. And no that not me being combative. Honestly me and a large majority of my generations gun culture just plain isn't interested in trying to have these conversations anymore because we know the outcome and it's just not worth the mental strain and re reading the same cookie cutter comments about how weak and stupid our generation is or how we're a bunch of sissies so on and so forth. Heck most of us just really don't care anymore goes in one ear and out the other and we just kinda go off and do our own thing .
Anyhow

Trust me, in 40yr the youngsters will be saying the same about you. Age extremes will not always agree, but can learn from each other with respectful discussion. "Seek first to understand" is a powerful trait to practice when dealing with others.

 

[Aero]

Well, if nothing else this thread proves that it's a lot easier to shrink the ranks of shooters than to grow it.

 

[David Milisock]

When I was young and wore hippy clothes and listened to Janis Joplin and Jimmy Hendrix, the older generation said the same damn thing. Now I’m old and say what they said.
Go figure.

They were right!

 

[urbanrifleman]

I think that if you live in a society where practicing for war is considered a game you've got other problems. Serious problems.

 

[David Milisock]

I think that if you live in a society where practicing for war is considered a game you've got other problems. Serious problems.

That's certainly a very good point. I also think that extreme concepts of home defense fall into a similar category.

Safety is my concern and as I look at various competitions there are problems.

 

[urbanrifleman]

That's certainly a very good point. I also think that extreme concepts of home defense fall into a similar category.

Safety is my concern and as I look at various competitions there are problems.

I do think it's just a matter of time before Americans get the war that they've been wishing for so bad... And not some war where we just go kick the crap out of a bunch of people who don't have the same toys we have, but a war with people that have the same toys... and are on our property.

But wars are not fought with ammunition and guns, an army marches on its belly.

 

[David Milisock]

I do think it's just a matter of time before Americans get the war that they've been wishing for so bad... And not some war where we just go kick the crap out of a bunch of people who don't have the same toys we have, but a war with people that have the same toys... and are on our property.

But wars are not fought with ammunition and guns, an army marches on its belly.

I agree with what Trump said, I have never seen a time where there is so, much passion for this country and so much hatred. I hope things don’t escalate and get out of hand. I'd like to think we can learn.

Back on my safety issue I went up the street to look at photographing a patch of sun flowers. The owner of the house tell me that the gun dealers about a mile and a half away (as the crow flies) who runs a little range for self defense training, a tactical firearms course is replacing a window and some siding on the neighbors house a mile on the other side of the range. This is second hand information that I'll confirm with the owner of the shot house. The blind leading the blind?

This is the state of nearly every profession I come into contact with. I know the younger generation has trouble understanding this but we old people are the only ones who have the knowledge of the way it was when things worked.

Safety and training are basics and we old farts have proof that we understand it since we lived to get old in environments that are not conducive to long life.

 

[ronsatspokane]

I think that if you live in a society where practicing for war is considered a game you've got other problems. Serious problems.

The problem of "practicing for war" is many orders of magnitude greater than that represented by firearms owners involved in 3 gun, Across the Course or PRS or even those blasting up bottles and appliances at the local sand pit with AR's and defense shotguns.

We've got a couple of generations, millions of children, trained on first person shooter games who have no idea what the structure of their government is, what their responsibilities as citizens are or what the laws of their state and nation are. They are being told that they may not be the gender their parents put on their birth certificates and that the world is going to end if their parents don't stop heating their homes and driving to work. They have never developed the verbal portion of their brains because they have their heads buried in cell phones all day long absorbing TikToc and Facebook posts while posting selfies of themselves. They can't communicate and they can't think but they are narcissistic in the extreme. In other words, a couple of generations educated to be stupid, pushed by society into a self centered world view bordering on mental illness and trained to kill using virtual reality tools. Now couple that reality with the fact that there are no consequences for bad behavior and the definition of bad behavior had become any behavior associated with traditional values like hard work, love of country and faith in a greater power. It is not hard to see where this ends. It does not end in war with external powers, it ends in the collapse of civilization from the inside. External powers who have designs on our territory or economy only need wait for us to do it for them.

Will and Ariel Durant wrote the 11 volume Story of Civilization that covers the path of civilization from pre-history to the start of WWII. That is more than many people have the time to assimilate (I've only been through the first 5) but they later wrote a summary titled Lessons of History. In that they cover the life cycle of civilizations. It is worth a read. I recommend the audio version as it has recordings of both Will and Ariel in their later years.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

It can be very intimidating for a new shooter to walk up to the line and see all the nice and expensive equipment there.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

It can be very intimidating for a new shooter to walk up to the line and see all the nice and expensive equipment there.

It could be very inspiring for them on the other hand too.

 

[David Milisock]

It can be very intimidating for a new shooter to walk up to the line and see all the nice and expensive equipment there.

That's where we old guys come in, we can teach a new shooter how to look for a quality budget friend base firearm, use it well and what additions are practical.

I believe once you're using a standard iron sighted rifle well you're in a far better position to judge whether a force modifier is what it claims to be.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

That's where we old guys come in, we can teach a new shooter how to look for a quality budget friend base firearm, use it well and what additions are practical.

I believe once you're using a standard iron sighted rifle well you're in a far better position to judge whether a force modifier is what it claims to be.

Right, I’m a planJane do more with less kinda guy. You can earn minimum wage and afford what I bring to the line lol

 

[M-61]

Ok level with me here. With the knowledge I'm 25 I've only been shooting since I was like 8 ,only have 6yr of military service, I don't shoot matches , I don't have any fancy bench rest stuff ( hell 90% of my stuff probably cost less then one scope on most of your rigs ) or trophies or anything to "prove my worth" , honestly what is gonna come out my mouth that 70% of the people here will take semi seriously or find any worth in ? Seriously say I typed up say a 8 paragraph essay on the ins and out of stuff , in reality how my people are gonna do more then go " who the hell is this snot nosed brat trying to tell me I'm wrong ?" Because imma be honest every time I've legitimately tried to have a conversation dealing with somthing like this it's almost ALWAYS ended up the same . Hence me saying I kinda know where this kinda conversation goes. And no that not me being combative. Honestly me and a large majority of my generations gun culture just plain isn't interested in trying to have these conversations anymore because we know the outcome and it's just not worth the mental strain and re reading the same cookie cutter comments about how weak and stupid our generation is or how we're a bunch of sissies so on and so forth. Heck most of us just really don't care anymore goes in one ear and out the other and we just kinda go off and do our own thing .
Anyhow

Well we can start with “ Ok level with me here”. Has an immediate connotation that I wouldn’t. So I’m forced to say “Ok, I will.”
I’m more than three times your age.
Thank you for your service. Our length of time in the service is the same.
I didn’t start shooting until I was 10.
I’ve shot very few matches and that was many years ago.
Scopes? No. I’ve had many. Found that the less expensive were way more to my liking. High end ones like a March I couldn’t wait to sell. Way too dark.
Bench rifles? Sure I have a few. With 60 years of working behind me I better be able to afford what I like.
“Proving my worth “? Well that is always been to myself, not for display.
So we should be on a level now.
When i became involved is bench shooting two things happened. I found some of those old men were really good. Second, ( and I’m not sure how this happened) I learned to listen intently and be respectful. Ron Whiteker, Ed Ferguson,and Dave Sarser were 3 of the most knowledgeable and exceptional shooters I have ever seen. They were ‘old men’ to me but man did I learn plenty.
Do you run into the Jeff Coopers with their whistle and booming voices? Their air of superiority ?
Sure. But you just skip on by them.
Don’t write off every who is older as being a pain in the ass. So don’t assume you’ve heard every conversation. Letting everything in one ear and out the other is self limiting and self defeating.
I’m only upset those 3 man have passed on some years ago. And actually I’m still hearing them.
You only ‘think’ you know the outcome.

BTW: aside from being a great bench rest shooter, an unreal trap guy, and champion pistol competitor, David Sarser was a concert violinist with the NBC Philharmonic Orchestra.
You never know who’ll you meet.

 

[David Milisock]

Right, I’m a planJane do more with less kinda guy. You can earn minimum wage and afford what I bring to the line lol

What's amazing is how much the cheap firearms I bought when we were a young family are worth now. A hundred and some odd dollar 30 carbine now $1,200 bucks. WTF!
A great training tool today!

 

[David Milisock]

Well we can start with “ Ok level with me here”. Has an immediate connotation that I wouldn’t. So I’m forced to say “Ok, I will.”
I’m more than three times your age.
Thank you for your service. Our length of time in the service is the same.
I didn’t start shooting until I was 10.
I’ve shot very few matches and that was many years ago.
Scopes? No. I’ve had many. Found that the less expensive were way more to my liking. High end ones like a March I couldn’t wait to sell. Way too dark.
Bench rifles? Sure I have a few. With 60 years of working behind me I better be able to afford what I like.
“Proving my worth “? Well that is always been to myself, not for display.
So we should be on a level now.
When i became involved is bench shooting two things happened. I found some of those old men were really good. Second, ( and I’m not sure how this happened) I learned to listen intently and be respectful. Ron Whiteker, Ed Ferguson,and Dave Sarser were 3 of the most knowledgeable and exceptional shooters I have ever seen. They were ‘old men’ to me but man did I learn plenty.
Do you run into the Jeff Coopers with their whistle and booming voices? Their air of superiority ?
Sure. But you just skip on by them.
Don’t write off every who is older as being a pain in the ass. So don’t assume you’ve heard every conversation. Letting everything in one ear and out the other is self limiting and self defeating.
I’m only upset those 3 man have passed on some years ago. And actually I’m still hearing them.
You only ‘think’ you know the outcome.

BTW: aside from being a great bench rest shooter, an unreal trap guy, and champion pistol competitor, David Sarcer was a concert violinist with the NBC Philharmonic Orchestra.
You never know who’ll you meet.

Here's an old man story. My experiance with the 223 was with the 5.56 x 45 in the military, I got a CAR 15 after my M2 Carbine. Years later I got a 6MM Remington for varmints but had issues with report so I got a HR break open to test the 223 for varmints, paid $175.

After I found out how I could make a 223 useful for varmints I bought a Howa 1500 in 223, I gave the HR to my son so he could train his kids. The Howa was kit varmint gun put together buy the dealer, $200+. Looking at scopes and seeing ridiculous concepts, ($700+) no way in hell for a rifle of that limited range. I happen upon a used Simmons 3 x 18, 50mm while at a dealer that was brought in used.

The 223 has energy and wind issues, especially when your 400 yard target is just a bit bigger than your fist. The Simmons is a not a great scope, useful, not awful but I've used it effectively out to the limit of a 223 on varmints. I've made 500 yard body hits on chucks and 400 yard head shots.

So the old guy advises that you buy scopes based on their ability to be effective as a sighting mechanism based on the size of your target and within the effective range of you rifle. You don't always need an expensive scope.

Yes I believe if you need more than iron sights to effectively hit a deer or elk at 300 yards you need more practice. Save the money you'd spend on a scope and buy ammo or a reloading setup. That does not mean you're stupid to use a scope but if your scope fails in the field you have the skills and the backup iron sight to save your hunt. A hunt cost BUCKS!

BTW David Tubbs shot 1 point less than a perfect score at 1,000 yards with iron sights.

 

[jackieschmidt]

When I was young and wore hippy clothes and listened to Janis Joplin and Jimmy Hendrix, the older generation said the same damn thing. Now I’m old and say what they said.
Go figure.

Many of us are old enough to remember when Elvis burst onto the scene. My goodness, you would have thought that the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse were saddling up the horses and getting ready to ride.

Then a decade and a half later, the Beatles Hit the scene. All of those now 30 year olds couldn’t see why all of those “kids” were screaming and acting so crazy……..just like they did.

As generations change, the previous one invariably can’t seem to understand why the younger generation likes the things they like and do the things they do. And Vice-a Versa.

It bleeds over into all walks of life.

The “good old days” were probably not as good as we would like to remember, and ”modern times” are ripe with a whole new set of problems.

If both young and old can’t seem to come to grips with that, maybe the problem lies with each.

 

[JFrank]

They were right!

IDK , there’s a point where I trust my kids to make decent decisions on their own.

 

[LiveFire]

Havent popped in to read this thread in a few days and to no surprise gun owners are doing gun owner things. Young people are wussies old people are rude, kids are worthless mush minded computer addicts, etc etc.

We as gun owners need to figure out how to come together and respect everyone's particular firearm interest under the umbrella of the 2nd amendment or were gonna keep losing it. Who cares if some 19 year old shows up with his call of duty replica ar15 mindlessly blowing ammo down range. Thank god hes at the range and not being stupid. Who cares that some old fella with his 20lb rifle mounted in a rest is cranky that the kid is "wasting ammo." Be happy the old guy is there to learn from. Were too dang quick to pick on each other because we dont like how someone else does something.

Somebody in this thread asked "what are you doing about it"? As far as declining numbers and here we are 9 pages in and Ive seen very little in the way of suggestions for growth. The bulk is bickering about age.

In my experience a good majority of those first person shooter kids will jump at the opportunity to shoot a gun like they use in their game. Ive taken quite a few family members, friends kids to the range to shoot. Some are adults now. Some shoot regularly some dont. But none would of been able to say yes if I stereotyped them all as facebook, tik tok homebodies. Ive also learned a fair amount from a few of the old heads at my conservation club. Ive also heard a ton of ridiculous garbage. Theres room for all ages, races, interest, budgets and personalities in gun ownership.