• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Why doesn't Hornady make match grade bullets capable of competing with Berger bullets?

davidjoe said:
If someone can take a stab at explaining how I can unravel 30 caliber, 250 grain long-range-only target bullets shot intentionally slowly, in some of the gentlest, most exceptionally made barrels, but have never exploded a single smaller caliber 110, spun at a faster twist rate and higher velocity, when it is traditionally the smaller, lighter bullets that sometimes have this propensity, I’m all ears.

It’s not as if Hornady doesn’t do a good job when making them big. I’ve shot the 750 A-Max since about 2003 when I bought an AR-50. It’s why I embraced the A-Tip line when they were introduced. That bullet, without a lot of publicity, likely holds all or nearly ALL the distance records in combat since the second Gulf War, and in factory loaded form from Hornady no less.
Click to expand...
Have you done the calcs of centripetal acceleration and the inertia of the jacket for the two?
 
muleystalker said:
not the
Click to expand...

Explorer1 said:
Not to mention how many benchrest shooters are shooting "factory" bullets vs. using the purpose built bullets in the benchrest boutique market or even swaging their own at home.
The supply and demand of J-4 jackets is an indicator of how many of those dedicated benchrest bullet makers there are. They stocked by few suppliers and are seldom in stock!
Click to expand...
Spot on!….
Wayne
 
Trampas is the lead/manager in Hornday custom bullet dept. I don’t recall the other couple of the guys although they may have traveled with him.
 
DiffEQ said:
Have you done the calcs of centripetal acceleration and the inertia of the jacket for the two?
Click to expand...

I’m a tad faster than their minimum published twist rate. They specify a mimimim of 8.5 and I’m at 8.0. If 8.5 is both the minimum and the maximum, they might note that for us. My barrels on order are no longer 8’s, but I began with eight, 8 twists, and that makes for a lot of shooting, if it’s not ideal. I don’t do moderation very well, I realize that.

On velocity, I’ve got to be at the lower half of what they anticipated. I shoot them through a 300 Win Mag looking for 7 good reloads at least.

These are monster bullets. I would imagine that Hornady foresaw no smaller a case being selected than its own 300 PRC, which is neck and neck with the Win Mag. The bullet would have been expected to be paired with cases like the RUM and 30-378 Weatherby, if they think anything like I do.

For big 30’s, I have that biggest Weatherby, the much smaller 300 Weatherby Mag, and the Lazzeroni Warbird in a single shot bench rifle. There’s no reason to shoot them through a larger cartridge right now though.
 
davidjoe said:
I’m a tad faster than their minimum published twist rate. They specify a mimimim of 8.5 and I’m at 8.0. If 8.5 is both the minimum and the maximum, they might note that for us. My barrels on order are no longer 8’s, but I began with eight, 8 twists, and that makes for a lot of shooting, if it’s not ideal. I don’t do moderation very well, I realize that.

On velocity, I’ve got to be at the lower half of what they anticipated. I shoot them through a 300 Win Mag looking for 7 good reloads at least.

These are monster bullets. I would imagine that Hornady foresaw no smaller a case being selected than its own 300 PRC, which is neck and neck with the Win Mag. The bullet would have been expected to be paired with cases like the RUM and 30-378 Weatherby, if they think anything like I do.

For big 30’s, I have that biggest Weatherby, the much smaller 300 Weatherby Mag, and the Lazzeroni Warbird in a single shot bench rifle. There’s no reason to shoot them through a larger cartridge right now though.
Click to expand...
I can understand why you shoot the heavies. And if you're loading them with stout charges, have you loaded them down where none self destruct? If you're hitting 3200 MV, at 8 twist, that bullet is spinning 288K RPM.
The same RPM on a .243 or .223 jacket exerts much less force because of the diameter of the bullet.

It's been almost 40 years since I've done stress analysis, but at some point the stress tensor from the force of the rotational centripetal acceleration will exceed the tensile strength of the copper jacket.
Even though we may not think .224 / .243 / .308 are that much different, at these insane RPMs, they make a huge difference in the force which the copper jacket experiences.
I'm sure the engraving from the grooves doesn't help.
 
I’m only pushing the 250’s about 2,825 average, from the cooler to the warmer relays in the a.m.

The 230’s, on the other hand, add another 120-130 FPS to that, with similar case head pressure. None of them have blown up. I believe the jackets are the same, but the 250’s with their longer bearing get hotter in the barrel.
 
I don't know I think they are fairly competitive...these are all in the 4" area shot @ 1000yd
 

Attachments

  • 20240519_202003.jpg
    20240519_202003.jpg
    597 KB · Views: 30
  • 20231029_123815.jpg
    20231029_123815.jpg
    598.3 KB · Views: 29
  • 20231029_101459.jpg
    20231029_101459.jpg
    600.4 KB · Views: 28
  • Snapchat-509712536.jpg
    Snapchat-509712536.jpg
    431.9 KB · Views: 31
I turned the corner with Hornday A-Max bullets and a Savage FTR single shot. The card notes all the details needed. It stays in my desk drawer.

Before these three bullets did this, guns, certainly good ones, were to be used rather stingily with an eye toward preservation, kind of like I still treat 50’s!

After this, the enthusiasm and craziness all began; true excitement, and largely because all that gear, which could do so well, was attainable, and also because it coincided with my oldest just about reaching the age to shoot club matches.

It’s scary what they actually can do, as they lack nothing, there. It’s the commitment to, and comfort of - to some extent, - all their other markets, that are our Hornady match bullet competition. Berger, for example lives on the continued contentment of only accurate rifle shooters, and that’s a huge amount of pressure, and they sure know it, and let us know that they do, in every thing they say and make.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0763.jpeg
    IMG_0763.jpeg
    468.8 KB · Views: 63
It's simple - their marketing research shows there are a lot more people buying products at their level of consistency than there are buying Berger or Lapua. I remember the times when I never tried Hornady in anything I was shooting. In those days it was Nosler neck and neck with Sierra. This was 30 years ago and only had ONE rifle shoot best with Hornady. So they have come a long long way.
 
Wind is so much more a factor as distance increases. It's nearly a square root. So, why would anyone use 1000 yard tagets to quantify the accuracy capabilities of a bullet , load or even a rifle? Serious question. Wind is approx 100 times of more significance that actual accuracy. It is what it is. Not knocking anything, any discipline or anyone.
 
gunsandgunsmithing said:
Wind is so much more a factor as distance increases. It's nearly a square root. So, why would anyone use 1000 yard tagets to quantify the accuracy capabilities of a bullet , load or even a rifle? Serious question. Wind is approx 100 times of more significance that actual accuracy. It is what it is. Not knocking anything, any discipline or anyone.
Click to expand...
So what distance do you suggest you quantify accuracy at....each distance needs tuned...my 1000yd load may not be the best load/bullet combo for 100....how many shots justify an accurate/consistent bullet 3...5...10...but the O.P. did say a competitive bullet capable of competing with berger....I guess knowing what discipline he was speaking of would have helped...I had some of the original Amax 105s that shot really good out of my groundhog gun @ 100 and 200yds no pics though flip phone days
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Classified Ads

Forum statistics

Threads
165,782
Messages
2,203,041
Members
79,110
Latest member
miles813

Share This Page

Back
Top