What to look for when a rifle will no longer group.

[abishai]

My 243 did the exact same thing at about that round count . I was on my 6th firing on my hundred count box of Lapua brass and the dough nuts needed to be taken out and brass needed to be annealed.

 

[joed49]

Tell us about ruining a barrel with jb- what method did you use to ruin it or did you just hear about this? I have used tons of it as have every br shooter that shoots and i have yet to see or hear of a barrel damaged by jb- and thats a battleship load of finely lapped custom barrels. I do hear this every once in a while but have never actually seen it and the person that brings it up usually hasnt either.

I used to use it to clean the barrel of my .25-06 700 Remington VS that I used for hunting groundhogs every weekend during the summer. At least twice a month I used JB to rid the barrel of copper fouling. I used a bronze brush and/or patches and would would clean the barrel just as I did with Hoppes. Used it for 10 years during summer shooting. The fouling was never very bad but I felt that it was something I didn't want for accuracy.

That barrel was toast around 800 rounds. The gunsmith that pronounced that barrel dead said the rifleing was gone for a good distance. Do I have written documentation that JB ruined the barrel? No, I don't. If you want to use JB, go for it. But there are other ways to remove fouling without using abrasives like JB.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I used to use it to clean the barrel of my .25-06 700 Remington VS that I used for hunting groundhogs every weekend during the summer. At least twice a month I used JB to rid the barrel of copper fouling. I used a bronze brush and/or patches and would would clean the barrel just as I did with Hoppes. Used it for 10 years during summer shooting. The fouling was never very bad but I felt that it was something I didn't want for accuracy.

That barrel was toast around 800 rounds. The gunsmith that pronounced that barrel dead said the rifleing was gone for a good distance. Do I have written documentation that JB ruined the barrel? No, I don't. If you want to use JB, go for it. But there are other ways to remove fouling without using abrasives like JB.

Well I hope that is not the case because I ordered a jar of it today with new brushes including the new Hoppes "tornado" brush to try and give it a good cleaning. Something has to be done as I have gone through every screw and checked everything I know to check. I'm ruling out the scope as it less than two months old and shoots perfect on my 6.5 Creedmoor (tried it yesterday) I put the scope back on the .243 and went to the range again tonight and got so mad I came home early. Best group at 200 yds was 5.4 inches with 5 shots! Tried Hornady 75gr Vmax and Nosler 80gr ballistic tips and sometimes you get two touching and the rest looks like a slingshot sent them. If a good cleaning don't restore the accuracy then the gun is gone.

 

[Steve morgan]

Well I hope that is not the case because I ordered a jar of it today with new brushes including the new Hoppes "tornado" brush to try and give it a good cleaning. Something has to be done as I have gone through every screw and checked everything I know to check. I'm ruling out the scope as it less than two months old and shoots perfect on my 6.5 Creedmoor (tried it yesterday) I put the scope back on the .243 and went to the range again tonight and got so mad I came home early. Best group at 200 yds was 5.4 inches with 5 shots! Tried Hornady 75gr Vmax and Nosler 80gr ballistic tips and sometimes you get two touching and the rest looks like a slingshot sent them. If a good cleaning don't restore the accuracy then the gun is gone.

Don't use a tornado brush in any rifled barrel, you won't like the results.

 

[joed49]

Well I hope that is not the case because I ordered a jar of it today with new brushes including the new Hoppes "tornado" brush to try and give it a good cleaning. Something has to be done as I have gone through every screw and checked everything I know to check. I'm ruling out the scope as it less than two months old and shoots perfect on my 6.5 Creedmoor (tried it yesterday) I put the scope back on the .243 and went to the range again tonight and got so mad I came home early. Best group at 200 yds was 5.4 inches with 5 shots! Tried Hornady 75gr Vmax and Nosler 80gr ballistic tips and sometimes you get two touching and the rest looks like a slingshot sent them. If a good cleaning don't restore the accuracy then the gun is gone.

I've stayed away from JB since that episode, but it may still have a place if used sparingly. I used it to excess which may be the reason for the early demise of my barrel.

The one thing I noticed when my barrel was gone is the rifle would still shoot a fairly good group for the first 1 or 2 shots but then would start to send bullets 2" away from the group on any more shots at 100 yards, almost like they were shot from a slingshot.

I had one of the BR builders here put a new Krieger barrel on that rifle and it is now the most accurate rifle I own. I learned a lesson from all this and am no longer a fanatic on cleaning unless the rifle needs it.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I've stayed away from JB since that episode, but it may still have a place if used sparingly. I used it to excess which may be the reason for the early demise of my barrel.

The one thing I noticed when my barrel was gone is the rifle would still shoot a fairly good group for the first 1 or 2 shots but then would start to send bullets 2" away from the group on any more shots at 100 yards.

That is exactly what mine is doing! Still makes nickel size holes at 100yds but beyond that, forget it. A local smith said he could rebarrel it in any caliber I want for $600+. I may just move on to something different just trying to decide on either 7mm or a .308.

 

[joed49]

That is exactly what mine is doing! Still makes nickel size holes at 100yds but beyond that, forget it. A local smith said he could rebarrel it in any caliber I want for $600+. I may just move on to something different just trying to decide on either 7mm or a .308.

That isn't a bad price for a barrel. I think I paid $425 but that was 10 years ago. I remember the smith telling me I could have any caliber I wanted. I already had all the components for .25-06 and it worked so well for what I used it for that it was an easy answer.

The new barrel is amazing, it cleans up with 2 patches and doesn't foul like the factory barrel did. The rifle till this point shot 1" groups at best, after the break in it settled down to just under 1/2" if I have a good day. It took awhile to find what the new barrel liked but I'm very happy with it.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

That isn't a bad price for a barrel. I think I paid $425 but that was 10 years ago. I remember the smith telling me I could have any caliber I wanted. I already had all the components for .25-06 and it worked so well for what I used it for that it was an easy answer.

The new barrel is amazing, it cleans up with 2 patches and doesn't foul like the factory barrel did. The rifle till this point shot 1" groups at best, after the break in it settled down to just under 1/2" if I have a good day. It took awhile to find what the new barrel liked but I'm very happy with it.

I think it best if I get away from the .243 at this point. Still shoots awesome enough to be a good hunting rifle. Been eyeing the Remington HS Precision in .308 for awhile but still unsure on a .308 maybe something in a 7mm-08??

 

[lpreddick]

Use the 243 for deer, or have your gunsmith chamber a 6 BR with a 12 or 14 twist depending on bullet you want to shoot. Barrel life is thousands, depending on how you shoot..

 

[joed49]

I think it best if I get away from the .243 at this point. Still shoots awesome enough to be a good hunting rifle. Been eyeing the Remington HS Precision in .308 for awhile but still unsure on a .308 maybe something in a 7mm-08??

I never liked the .308, always thought it was useless. In 2005 when Winchester announced they were closing the NH plant I found a nice model 70 Stealth NIB, unfortunately in .308. But, I bought it anyway against my thoughts.

I've been playing with this rifle since I bought it, intending to use it in F Class or something. To date I think I have put 70 rounds through it. It is the most accurate cartridge I've messed with, almost boring to shoot. I have a whole new perspective on the .308 now. It isn't a barrel burner like the varmint cartridges I own, and very accurate with any powder or bullets I feed it. Do I like the .308 now? Yes, I'm a big fan. I really need to get out and shoot it more. Recently joined a range near me that goes to 300 yards so shortly this gun is going to see some use.

 

[mugadutz]

My .243 has about 650 rounds down the barrel and would give really good results with many different bullets and/or powders. However lately it has gone all wonky at any range above 100yds. My go to load is 87gr Vmax with H100V powder at 39.6grs and will group dime size hole at 100yds. and just over 1 inch at 200yds and under 2 inches at 300. Yesterday and today as well best I could get at 200yds was a 4.5 inch group! I have noticed that this has been getting worse for about the last month or so and have cleaned the barrel with several cleaners and copper removers with no improvement. Could the barrel be getting at the end of it life span? Oh, Winchester M70 stainless light barrel 24 inch.

Look for a new barrel

 

[HillBilly98]

I’m not an expert just a dumb flatland hillbilly. Before I went through tons of scrubbing if you think you may have the fouling out and other things I would check the obvious and easy things first like others mentioned. I would check scope rings and base screws, and action screws. I have read others on here knock the ideal of having a damaged crown but it is worth checking. It takes only a second to check. If all of that looks ok check the scope or put another one on it and try. The best of them have problems from time to time. Lots of folks using different things to bed actions now. Is it possible that an issue is that...maybe?

 

[AckleymanII]

For a gun that goes Wacko, that is properly bedded, you have checked all screws, magazine box is not in a bind, & changed scopes:

1. Check seating depth
2. powder fouled
3. brass has super work hardened necks-anneal*********
4. you changed to another lot # of powder
5. Change to another brand of bullet, the lot # of bullet you are shooting
is not as good as the previous lot that was shooting good.

It has been my experience in helping guys that only clean when there is an accuracy loss do not have proper cleaning equipment(they do not like to clean). This may not be the case with you, but it leads to some super hard carbon issues as the carbon is super cooked. If there has been carbon/copper build up to a point of loosing accuracy, then you need a very aggressive cleaning regiment to get fouling out to bare metal. If you do not clean down to bare metal, the carbon that is left in the barrel will get super heated to the point to where it may not come(extreme case) out with anything less than 0000 steel wool wrapped in a brush with JB, IoSSO, or Flitz in the steel wool.

For many years we always shot our barrels to where they were super fouled on large pristine Prairie dog towns, but we did learn hard lessons in cleaning filthy barrels. Our normal regiment was 300 rounds on 223's, 22 & 6PPC, and 150 rounds on 243 AI's. We were shooting 600-1100 center fires a day.

Please throw those tornado brushes away!

Buy Good bronze bristle brushes by the dozen as a good brush is only good for around 100 strokes. After 100 strokes you are not scrubbing the groove, only the lands:
https://www.brownells.com/gun-clean...ozen-pack-bronze-rifle-brushes-prod40081.aspx

For anyone that is a gun enthusiast, the Lyman bore scope is a truly one of the best tools you can invest money in. Buy one and you will NEVER regret it, and you will become your own expert. The bore scope will remove all doubts when it is time to re barrel.

Often, shooting buddies/family members will go in halves on a bore scope:
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...opes/borecam-digital-borescope-prod81507.aspx

Good luck

 

[Bruce W]

I have also lost my accuracy with a ppc barrel that seems to get worse with each outing . I shot the attached target a few days ago . I thought it was relatively clean when i shot this target. I have the Lyman wanna be Hawkeye,recently purchased, and there was a small amount of the carbon with small flecks of copper. a few inches out from the chamber. Since this target was shot I have cycled a new brush in 25 stroke intervals using the GM Tec ( the good stuff from way back) and Butches and some kroil. i waited about a half hour between strokings for the liquids to work. After 175 brush stokes I still have a little bit in there. Unbeliveable . followed up with JB on a sinclair pellet to no avail. The irony is the the first 5 shot group measures about .075 shot from Stolle with a hart 14 twist. I believe the culprit in my case was: unaware of the carbon build up. 650 rounds on this barrel . Going to try again next week and see how many shots it takes to loose the grouping capability and change barrels if needed. i shot the group top to bottom 5 shots each

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have also lost my accuracy with a ppc barrel that seems to get worse with each outing . I shot the attached target a few days ago . I thought it was relatively clean when i shot this target. I have the Lyman wanna be Hawkeye,recently purchased, and there was a small amount of the carbon with small flecks of copper. a few inches out from the chamber. Since this target was shot I have cycled a new brush in 25 stroke intervals using the GM Tec ( the good stuff from way back) and Butches and some kroil. i waited about a half hour between strokings for the liquids to work. After 175 brush stokes I still have a little bit in there. Unbeliveable . followed up with JB on a sinclair pellet to no avail. The irony is the the first 5 shot group measures about .075 shot from Stolle with a hart 14 twist. I believe the culprit in my case was: unaware of the carbon build up. 650 rounds on this barrel . Going to try again next week and see how many shots it takes to loose the grouping capability and change barrels if needed. i shot the group top to bottom 5 shots eachView attachment 1060745

If you didnt clean between those groups thats exactly whats expected from a rifle thatll shoot a .075 group after cleaning. You gotta stay on top of it. In the lifecycle of your barrel where its at now and what it is id predict between each group youll needa few butchs patches and a bronze brush scrub then wet butches then dry out followed by 2 fouler shots then your group. Repeat that for 15 groups max then youll need to iosso/jb then repeat. 4-600 more rounds and youll be ready for a new barrel possibly. Halfway thru a barrel’s life things change

 

[Bruce W]

Dusty,Thanks . I was thinking I'm gonna have to stay on top of it . I wont mind the extra cleaning if it maintains good groups. bruce

 

[Frankr]

when my barrel will no longer group

 

[Dusty Stevens]

when my barrel will no longer group

View attachment 1061327

Then this:

 

[Raptor]

I used to use it to clean the barrel of my .25-06 700 Remington VS that I used for hunting groundhogs every weekend during the summer. At least twice a month I used JB to rid the barrel of copper fouling. I used a bronze brush and/or patches and would would clean the barrel just as I did with Hoppes. Used it for 10 years during summer shooting. The fouling was never very bad but I felt that it was something I didn't want for accuracy.

That barrel was toast around 800 rounds. The gunsmith that pronounced that barrel dead said the rifleing was gone for a good distance. Do I have written documentation that JB ruined the barrel? No, I don't. If you want to use JB, go for it. But there are other ways to remove fouling without using abrasives like JB.

Depending on how hot you got it when shooting I would say that your problem was not the JBs. I had a 260 that I used in tactical matches and after a trip to Wyoming in Aug at 100 to 105 for a three day match my barrel was toast. It had rifling gone for a ways up the throat and it was black as coal for about 6"s up the barrel. It was fire cracked so bad it looked like a dried up lake bed. This barrel never lived long enough to see any JBs. I find it hard to believe you could scrub long enough or hard enough to wear out any rifling at all. I also shot the barrels out of a couple of 25-06s and they don't tend to last to long when you shoot them for any period of time. They get very hot, very fast and it does not take long to ruin one.

 

[Frankr]

I guess I should not say anything but guys are getting into this type of shooting where they are shooting 10 , 20, 25 shot groups and want to use a High speed, High performance cartridge. Barrels will not last...Get a HB 308 Win. and now you know why.

A good 308 barrel can last 5K rounds or 2,500 shooting non stop 20 round groups