What would make a 100yd group open up by a factor of 5x at 200yds?

[Bc'z]

Yup, more shooting and more groups are needed before any real conclusions can be drawn.

I've been told: "Don't try to force the rifle to shoot something it doesn't like." Accordingly, I'm going back to square one and will start with a different powder and bullet. Seems like SMK's 69gn and Varget is a good starting point. I'll also simultaneously work with N135 and a bullet in the 55gn weight range. too. I also ordered Lapua brass, to replace the Starline brass I was using.

Different rifle, but here is my shooting set-up:


1" orange dots were used at 100yds; 2" orange dots were used at 200yds.
2 foulers were shot before shooting for group. I do agree that it looks like that Kimber barrel is "settling in" after cleaning. Maybe it needs more than 2 shots to properly foul.

Here are the .22 bullets I have on hand:

What powders do you have to go with that bullet assortment?

 

[Shinbone]

I've slowly amassed a little bit of everything. In the approximate .223Rem burn-rate range, I've got:

H-322
Accurate 2015
AR 10X
Viht N130
Viht N133
Norma N-201
Benchmark
H-335
Accurate 2230
H4895
IMR-4895
Viht N135
IMR-4064
Accurate 2520
Viht N140
Varget
Winchester 748

 

[Homerange]

Invest in better scopes, that is one with far more magnification than the 3-9 you are already using.
Expecting to shoot good groups at 100 let alone 200 is only an exercise in frustration with a hunting scope.
Been there done that and 16x+ is the least I'd recommend.
The next impact on grouping is factory adjusted triggers, adjust yours to 2 1/2 lb or lighter and enjoy the benefits.
Once both the above addressed then experiment with loads.

 

[Bc'z]

I've slowly amassed a little bit of everything. In the approximate .223Rem burn-rate range, I've got:

H-322
Accurate 2015
AR 10X
Viht N130
Viht N133
Norma N-201
Benchmark
H-335
Accurate 2230
H4895
IMR-4895
Viht N135
IMR-4064
Accurate 2520
Viht N140
Varget
Winchester 748

Benchmark is my go to powder for 55-60 gr bullets.
Have also had great success with W748, IMR4895.
Currently working with H322 in 6x45 with
65-68gr bullets, things are looking promising.

 

[stacy]

EACH IS OWN BUT ITS HARD TO GROUP SHOT WITH A 9X SCOPE OR IT IS FOR ME 12X OR 15X MIN I CAN USE

 

[clunker]

I'm not an expert by any means, but isn't that a keyhole in your second pic? I thought those were a warning sign of an unstable bullet.

 

[Shinbone]

I have considered getting a dedicated fixed-power target scope. But, I am usually working up loads for multiple rifles at one time, so just one target scope wouldn't be enough. My wallet is already crying as it is.

I picked up in a trade a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x44, with the BRX fine crosshairs reticle. I'll see if I can "limp" along with that optic for load development for awhile.

What looks like a keyhole is just where the bullet hole tore out to one side. All actual bullet holes are very round on all the targets.

 

[hambone1971]

Gun is an all-factory bedded Kimber Montana in .223 Rem shooting Berger FBT 55gn bullets over 26.4gn of AA2230 at 3400fps average velocity. These were shot off a bench with a front rest/bag and a rear bag. 2 foulers were shot from a clean barrel before the groups. 1 minute between shots, 20 minutes between the two groups. Close to zero wind.

I know MOA size can be expected to open up some as the range increase, but 5x from going from 100yds to 200yds is ridiculous.

I've used AA2230 with a lot better results but my load was about 3 gr less.
The Hornady book shows 24.5 max at 3200 fps for 5.56 Nato, nothing for Rem.
When you seat your bullets are they feeling the same from bullet to bullet when
they go in the brass? Neck Tension equal?
If your starting with a super clean barrel it's going to take more than 2 fowling shots to get it shooting. I wouldn't shoot for groups untill I had 10 or 15 down the barrel.
The other thing I wondering about is you mention front rest / Bag and rear Bag .. if possible shoot off a more fixed.stable front rest. Something with no give in it.
My ES is a lot less say 10-20, good luck.
HB

 

[Shinbone]

"When you seat your bullets are they feeling the same from bullet to bullet when they go in the brass? Neck Tension equal?"

I've wondered whether my neck tension is under control. I seat using a Wilson inline die and a 21st Century arbor press. No hydro measuring capabilities, though. Neck tension does sometimes feel different. In fact, sometimes I have to neck-size a particular case down another .001" to keep the bullet from "falling in." This is why I am switching from the Starline brass to Lapua brass.

I have the capability to trim necks, but such level of case prep seems a little over-the-top for a 200yd prairie dog gun.

 

[Bc'z]

"When you seat your bullets are they feeling the same from bullet to bullet when they go in the brass? Neck Tension equal?"

I've wondered whether my neck tension is under control. I seat using a Wilson inline die and a 21st Century arbor press. No hydro measuring capabilities, though. Neck tension does sometimes feel different. In fact, sometimes I have to neck-size a particular case down another .001" to keep the bullet from "falling in." This is why I am switching from the Starline brass to Lapua brass.

I have the capability to trim necks, but such level of case prep seems a little over-the-top for a 200yd prairie dog gun.

Are you annealing?
If your having to resize the occasional case it sounds like your having a bit of spring back.

 

[243winxb]

Neck tension does sometimes feel different. In fact, sometimes I have to neck-size a particular case down another .001" to keep the bullet from "falling in."

I see this as a major problem. Size the neck smaller then needed. Then open with an expander. Aim for .002" neck tension.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I would be looking for a different or better bullet

It's not the bullet's. It's the powder, it's always the powder.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Gun is an all-factory bedded Kimber Montana in .223 Rem shooting Berger FBT 55gn bullets over 26.4gn of AA2230 at 3400fps average velocity. These were shot off a bench with a front rest/bag and a rear bag. 2 foulers were shot from a clean barrel before the groups. 1 minute between shots, 20 minutes between the two groups. Close to zero wind.

I know MOA size can be expected to open up some as the range increase, but 5x from going from 100yds to 200yds is ridiculous.

The ES isn't great, but it isn't enough to blow up a group that much at 200yds . . . ?


At 100yds, group size is 1.15", ES = 104fps:





At 200yds, group size is 5.37", ES=120fps:




Had almost similar results with a Ruger Hawkeye in .223 Rem at the same shooting session.

At 100yds, group size is 1.05", ES=100fps:




At 200yds, group size is 3.66", ES=144fps:

It's the powder, it's always the powder. 1"+ groups are rotten. My 223 Tikka rifle's make between high zeros to 1/4" . 300 yard groups under 1" mostly with varget powder. I could show you groups of 1" at 100 yards with those same rifle's only using the wrong powder. It's always the powder that makes the accuracy difference.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Too much powder. Berger recommends AA 2320 at 23.5 to 25.9 grs. It's their bullet and they did the tests. I will bet that if you start at around 24.3 grs, your results will improve dramatically.

What is the barrel twist rate. It is recommended 1/14 or faster, for 55 gr bullets.

 

[Old Tanker]

You may also want to change your point of aim. When doing load development and groups, I never cover the intended point of impact with the cross hair. At 100, I line up on the lower left corner of a 1” square with the intent of having the group in the center of the square. This gives me a consistent and very small point of aim. I use a 2.5” square at 300. When shooting .22 rimfire on a benchrest target, I line the horizontal and vertical cross hairs tangent to the left side and bottom of the 9 ring. Also, breath, breath, breath. You can’t hold your point if aim much longer than a couple of seconds. Five seconds and longer and your brain/eyes start playing tricks. I learned this valuable lesson shooting off hand, international targets in small bore competition in college.

 

[Homerange]

I have considered getting a dedicated fixed-power target scope. But, I am usually working up loads for multiple rifles at one time, so just one target scope wouldn't be enough. My wallet is already crying as it is.

I picked up in a trade a Swarovski Z5 3.5-18x44, with the BRX fine crosshairs reticle. I'll see if I can "limp" along with that optic for load development for awhile.

I reckon that will open your eyes to precision shooting.

Oh yes doing a couple of rifles at a time would be problematic with just one target scope yet you can still do fire forming and/or velocity/ES checks on rifles with a hunting scope.
I find the choice of target helps immensely with precision shot placement when you haven's sufficient magnification.
Being I can just walk out the door more or less to my range allows me to just need one 4-16x magnification scope and yet it wasn't expensive at all, only some $150 landed and it lives on my 223 except when needed for other load development works.
Being from China the optics aren't top class but certainly good enough for my needs however I'd never take it on a remote trip in challenging weather.

 

[JFrank]

I thought this was all settled earlier in the thread?

 

[Zero333]

Years ago I was chronographing some loads and a young fella asked if he could chrono his.

So I shot his rifle with 10 of his 223 handloads thorough the chrono aiming at the 300 meter target.
The 300meter 10 shot group was barely over 1 inch, but the ES was over 100 fps

 

[chop house]

I'll see if I can "limp" along with that optic

i am no stranger to limping along when it comes to optics. it's the $$$. when i have to work with hunting optics i use a 'reverse' target so to speak. i print them up with the white space sized according to reticle subtension, and use them like iron dual peep sights so to speak, centering up the white space.

no need to use this much black, but you get the idea:

 

[CharlieNC]

You mentioned this is a hot load. When doing a charge weight ladder I have observed both the ES and groups get abruptly large at high pressures. Meaning the very high ES may not be the cause, but an accompanying symptom. You may be in that regime.