Varmint Caliber Question

[johnmyers]

JohnWayne,

Your reply to Cliffy was one of the best I've heard. Maybe you could kill a dozen that way. Great post.

John

 

[Ackman]

John Wayne, I've shot over a dozen PDogs to date, most with a .177 caliber RWS Diana Model 350 MAGNUM rifle with Beeman imported German-made precision 8.9 grain Field Special pellets. I have shot one with a .223 Remington loaded with 55 grain Nosler Ballistic-Tip bullet at 3500 fps muzzle velocity,

Wow.....with so much experience you must think you're a sure 'nuff authority.

 

[Ackman]

When sport reverts to bloody carnage, I'd opt for the air rifle for extreme accuracy at subsonic velocity to fifty yard shooting. Blowing the guts out of a truly stupid two-pound adversary requires a special type of person. Dead is dead, and air rifles are ALL that is required, at least in Wyoming around Rock Springs. Cliffy

And saying stuff like this proves you're sure 'nuff clueless. Which everyone already knew anyway.

 

[cliffy]

"Clueless" as I may be, I keep trying, if not necessarily regarding hapless PDogs. Chipmunks are easy to shoot also, since it takes almost no skill to kill a few for sport. Take on a Cougar if you want to impress me, but NOT with dogs. You against a vicious cougar in a remote area, since they tend to track the tracker. If it weighs less than twenty pounds, I usually leave it alone to eat a few leaves. PDogs are not generally edible, same as Chipsters. Thirteen-lined ground squirrels are equally stupid and vulnerable to air-powered rifles. My .243 Winchester is not a woodchuck rifle, since it wails on Feral Hogs through Mule Deer and Cougar, and, hopefully, soon Gray Wolves. My .223 Remington is Coyote dedicated. What does a Speer 105 grain Soft-Point @ 3050 fps out the muzzle have in common with small varmints? The Upper Peninsula of Michigan offers Elk through Whitetail, so I don't really think about prairie dogs much. When I do travel to Wyoming, elk are most on my mind, not PDogs. p.s. I've recently become enamoured by .308 Winchester 165 grain bullets, but due to my accuracy at 300 yards, do I need more horsepower than a .243 Winchester provides? Cliffy

 

[effendude]

I am proud to say that I and most of my friends are that:
"special type of person"
Seriously, a dozen with an air rifle and ONE with a .223 to date?
Unbelievable.....

 

[Ackman]

Dead is dead, and air rifles are ALL that is required, at least in Wyoming around Rock Springs. Cliffy

And that right there is so far beyond stupid it's funny.

 

[squirrelduster]

I think you are really missing out if you don't seriously consider the 6 br. I have a Hart barrel Remington 722 sitting in a Boyd pillar bedded stock. I have the 1:8 twist and shoot 75 gr. VMAX's. I have killed thousands of ground squirrels with it and the accuracy is still amazing. 300 to 400 yard squirrels are dead, no question about it.
I have shot around 3500 rounds so far and I haven't shot a target in a couple years but the rodents haven't noticed the accuracy slipping. Very economical to shoot and really fun.

 

[JohnWayne]

Thanks guys, my next show is tonight at 6:00 in the piano bar at the Ritz. Free admission for all of you "special people".

 

[cliffy]

To Ackman and "John Wayne" primarily: what makes you guys such experts, so to pooh-pooh my comments? No, I'm not an EXPERT because I experiment afield constantly. I tell it like I find it. If I stopped experimenting, would the .223 Remington and .243 Winchester fare be better or worse for my concern? You guys are apparently the .223 Remington and .243 Winchester EXPERTS regarding research into the potentials regarding super-power loads in these two potent cartridges.
1500 ft/lbs of .223 Rem and 2200 ft/lbs of .243 Win prowess. Next you'll tell me that a .375 Ruger 270 grainer is the minimum required force to stop a Badger in its tracks. Cliffy

 

[cliffy]

I'll hit the three hundred yard range tomorrow, regarding .243 Winchester velocities and accuracy. If only I care, so be it. I can keep my progress to myself. Does anyone besides these two pessimistic antagonists care about what I'm willing to share? If so, I may grow silent and stop offering my findings on-line. I'm thick-skinned, but if no one cares, so be it. Cliffy Thus-far 105 Speer Spitzer Soft-Points at a muzzle velocity from a .243 Winchester 24" barrel rule the 300 yard range with merely 46.0 grains of Alliant RL-22 powder. 3100 fps on a warm day does not pale to many so-called MAGNUM offerings. Bullet placement is more important to recoil-intrusive monster magnums toward getting the job done. Owners of .243 Winchester rifles should never feel intimidated by MAGNUM MORONS attempting to subdue any animal under 600 pound body weight. Cliffy

 

[johnmyers]

Cliffy
I respect your opinion on the 243 it is a fine cartridge, I use one myself for prarie dogs. Granted you don't need something that large for prarie dogs, but in high wind you need the larger cartridges to shoot the high bc bullets to bite the wind. I've done it enough to know that a 223 with 50gr bullets in 30mph wind is a waste of ammo. If you look at a ballistic progran like the Sierra Infinity you will see how big a difference the larger high bc bullets make. Some of us like to shoot at very long range which we enjoy as much as you do shooting your 243 at 300yds, everyone should do what they like without having to defend their pastime. Any negative thoughts should be aimed at antigunners instead of fellow shooters.
John

 

[Iamsignal3]

John,
Accolades!
We are in the same boat and although we may disagree on what each of us calls fun it is ours. Cliffy does share good info but as my dad used to say your opinion and rights ends just short of my nose.
He (dad) thought I was silly to use a 300 mag on deer but never said I can't or was wrong (maybe young and silly tho).
By the same token we shouldn't be bashing each other up or down the chat ladder.

 

[cliffy]

Hi John, I only intend to report my findings to people who care, not antagonists who antagonize efforts to assist fellow shooters. Regarding .223 Remington prowess, 55 grain premium fare cuts the wind far better than lighter bullets and 1-in-14" to 1-in 9" can handle 55 grainers. Distance downrange is a critical factor regarding sustainable accuracy, shot-per-shot. Two-hundred yards is very sustainable from a practiced shooter, while three-hundred yards presses the assurace envelope, still four-hundred consistancy becomes shaky, while five-hundred yard shooting shakes all-over the place. Six-hundred yard shooting belongs to the realm of target shooting, and does not belong in the repetur'e of proper hunting range. Wheither .223 Remington full-blown loads or .22/250 Savage loads at the ideal 55 grain premium wind-bucking, velocity-kicking butt loads are far from SIX-HUNDRED yard deadly loads. LUCK should never enter into "hunting" hits. I work my butt-off at producing 300 yard consistant accuracy, so I am appaulled at people claiming constant 600 yard killers. Cliffy

 

[cliffy]

I never claimed to be the consumate "EXPERT" at shooting anything, at any specific range. I merely offer my FINDINGS of result from experimentation, of which I spend far too much money attaining these results. Lay off, unless you have some specific loads to convey to me. I am here to learn, but so far, I've heard nothing that assists my advancement. I have heard demeaning retoric regarding my attempts to further our game of helping each other. Thanks, Cliffy

 

[cliffy]

How many Chipmunks and Prairie Dogs must I kill to qualify as a viable source of firepower knowledge? Maybe I must produce a video of carnage. Maybe I need to create a new cartridge. Actually, a .223 Remington with a 55 grain quality-built bullet is all that will ever be required to quell every beasty up to sixty pounds of body weight. Small Wolves, Coyotes, and Thirteen-lined Ground Squirrels are no match for .223 Remington prowess. Growing up hunting to Gray Wolf Hybrids, newly-released since 1980 or so, may prove the .243 Winchester the caliber of choice to quell such vermin. Today, it's merely a matter of dollars to upgrade to over-powering loads that reduce the "sporting" quality of hunting anything. Animals that kill humans are due to virolent reintroductions and loss of fear of humans in the food chain, may require such potency of caliber as the mighty .243 Winchester with 100 grain premium loads. Cliffy

 

[cliffy]

A .243 Winchester 70 grain Speer T-N-T load is directed specifically at Coyote-Sized varmints, especially at 3500 fps out the muzzle. Until 90 grain bullets are reached by handloads, is the .243 Winchester viable for Deer-Sized game. 85 grain Barnes TSX bullets are minimal for Whitetails, they DOI work well, if the accuracy of placement exists. Varmints do not require deer-sized bullets, and so 62 grain Barnes Varmint Grenades through 70 grain Speer T-N-T bullets, properly loaded, are MORE or at least proper fare for such varmints. Pelt-savers versus blow-em-away loads are garnered through experimentation. A .223 Remington load can be a pelt-saver more swiftly than a .243 Winnie-Pooh maxy load. A bullet that explodes inside the victim, and does not exist, produces a cleaner pelt. A bullet that decimates and exists a tiny beasty was designed to kill the barn-yard prowler, without regard to saving a mangy pelt. I have a series of whatever is desired loads for whatever results are desired. A .223 Remington can be quaint or monsterous in power. A .243 Winchester load is difficult to remain quaint. It can be accomplished, but powder, bullet choices are paramount. Cliffy

 

[Ackman]

I mainly target woodchucks, crows, and other small vermin out to about 300 yards, we do a PD shoot yearly where I can stretch out to to as far as I care to go.

I would like your opinions on a 6mm choice of caliber. I would like to start somewhere in the 70 grain range of bullets (blitz, vmax). These seem to give the best blend of bullet BC and velocity. It must feed from a magazine (no 6BR) and I would like to be able to push the 70 grainers to 3700ish to make them as flat as possible.

These are the parameters from the original question.

Cliffy, being clueless doesn't ever keep you from saying dumb things and babbling incessantly. Maybe you're drunk or on medication......

Don't want to be a "magnum moron." Next pd trip to Wyoming maybe I'll leave the centerfires and take just a pellet gun? Yeah, right!

 

[cliffy]

Ryan, not impossible, merely impractical, since almost nothing is impossible, save striking a safety match on a wet bar of soap and expecting a flame to appear. Does anyone disagree that 600 yards is a far piece downrange? Only the most practiced shooters need reply. Does anyone want to tell a neophite that 600 yards is a practical hunting range? People who read our "Expert Reports" expect to learn. What posts to date SHOW people how to consistantly score solid hits at 600 yards? I'm waiting to see one. It's easy to say I'm clueless, but to prove it would take real proof, such as beating me at target competition. Three-hundred yard, one-inch groups are my best efforts to date. I can make my custom handloads reach 600 yards, but to what practical purpose regarding the average hunter afield? Varmints are generally small in stature, so hard to see at 600 yards. I shoot at 24x scope power regularly, yet those pesky PDogs look like specks way out there. Maybe I need larger eyes or actually try a 48x scope. I consider myself an average, well-practiced shooter regarding 10x accuracy on a consistant basis. I realize my groups at 600 yards would open up to at least 6-12" and I know PDogs do not grow to a 12" bullseye. An occasional "luck shot" does not a 600 yard PDog hunter make. I've seen reports of 1000 yard shots make on PDogs: pure dumb luck, and extremely rare at that. My .223 Remington with 55 grain bullets at a muzzle velocity of 3500 fps is extremely potent, but 600 yarders they are not. I gave up on 50 grain fare long ago, since they only shorten the effective range in high wind conditions. People reverting to .177 caliber centerfires will find windage extremely difficult to deal with regarding PDogs (prairie rats) at even 300 yards. A .22/250 with 55 grain bullets produce a slight velocity edge, but if one must attempt 400 yard shots at PDogs, go to a 70 grain Speer T-N-T hollow-point backed by about 45.0 grains of Hodgdon H4350. This is not a starter load, so work up to it via standard published procedures using a newer .243 Winchester bolt/rifle. If one misses, one will see the cloud of dust from the savage impact. Cliffy

 

[cliffy]

Hi Ackman, and, yes, I think you could learn a lot from a pellet rifle, such as GETTING CLOSER to your target for a humane kill. Stalking is a major part of hunting, so as to prevent the need for 600 yard shots. Having lived in Wyoming for some time, after leaving Utah's Wasach Mountain Range, you can believe I've actually shot more than a few dozen prairie rats. I tend to under-exaggerate. I merely wish to impart my experience with reloading and custom handloading with regards to my findings, rather than merely repeat what I garnered from volumes of reloading manuals. Cliffy

 

[JohnWayne]

Cliffy, I don't think you a getting the message so I wrote this little poem for you in hopes that your simple mind may be able to understand what people think of you. Here it goes:

Cliffy Cliffy you don't have a clue
I think it's because you sniff glue

Cliffy Cliffy your as bad as gonerria
from your mouth B.S. flows like diarhia

Cliffy Cliffy we all know you have lied
in NRA range safety you are certified

Cliffy Cliffy you have no social skills
and we doubt you have ever made any kills

Cliffy Cliffy get on your Rascal scooter
ride it around because you aint no shooter

Cliffy Cliffy some things you will never get
thats why your the scurge of the internet.

Have a nice weekend everyone!