Tuners

[ELR LVR]

There is no reason that the design of a barrel/tuner combination could not be calculated and optimized, but it does not appear any business has the funds to finance the research to gain sufficient understanding. Our backyard science projects only go so far and have typically led to more debate than concensus.

Well I would believe every barrels metallurgy, profile, length etc is going to contribute to the difficulty in arriving at hard core accurate definitives.
Likely why no company has invested the time to do the R&D
Since every barrel will act differently and is isolated as mentioned to ones own empirical testing.
Similar to how, Even a theoretical trajectory drop chart should be shot in real life to proof it, since even same bullets from the same Mfgr can act differently from lot to lot.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Everything is theory until ya do it and see the results confirm the testing, err...theory. There are multiple ways to conclude that water is wet but one way is to put your hand in it.

 

[CharlieNC]

Well I would believe every barrels metallurgy, profile, length etc is going to contribute to the difficulty in arriving at hard core accurate definitives.
Likely why no company has invested the time to do the R&D
Since every barrel will act differently and is isolated as mentioned to ones own empirical testing.
Similar to how, Even a theoretical trajectory drop chart should be shot in real life to proof it, since even same bullets from the same Mfgr can act differently from lot to lot.

Of course, thats why I referred to it as the barel/tuner combination. While it is a long term costly project, think of how much combined money has been wasted by many individuals over the years in pursuit of their little piece of this knowledge.

 

[jelenko]

If the metallurgy of the barrel is a factor, then we would need to be able to test/determine it to do our predictions.
Same with the metallurgy of the bullet jacket.

If the work were done, I could imagine a time when the needed variables from the barrel and bullets were supplied with each barrel and lot of bullets.

Just from reading, it would seem something else is also a factor for 'hummer' barrels - perhaps something about the minute dimensions in the bore/chamber/crown?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think I mentioned this earlier but I plan to do testing later this season of a bbl or so, pre and post cryo treatment...fwiw. I know within reason that they do in fact vibrate differently but I hope to find out if it matters to tuning or not.

 

[swd]

Honestly, this thread has been more complete with ideas, theories, and contrary opinions than many others on here.

Some top F/Class shooters actively avoid them, while others say if you dont use one you're getting beat by one. That's the game I play.

I have always been in the camp of no tuner, but this new build I decided to try one and diving head first into theory, practice and testing methods to see for myself if the juice is worth the squeeze. Excited to explore the possibilities and see where this leads me.

What sold me on tuners is last year Bruce and I went to the Nevada LR regional. They shoot e targets and Friday was a practice day with absolutely perfect conditions. My 6.5x47 which shoots pretty dam good at Sac was holding a solid 3/4 MOA waterline at Sparks over about 30 practice shots. I was happy with my practice, shooting mostly 10’s and X’s Being new to tuners I didn’t think about moving the tuner until the very end. I moved it 1 click and the waterline instantly dropped to all just sub X ring over the next 10 shots. I went over to Bruce and saw his Dasher was shooting a just little under 3/4 MOA waterline so I reached over and turned it 1 click and it came down to right at 1/2 then I tuned it one more and instantly it was shooting mostly a solid 1/4 moa waterline! Seeing 2 guns that were in good tune at their home range go out of tune 4000’ higher and then being able to get them back in a click or 2 completely sold me on them!

 

[TC260]

If the metallurgy of the barrel is a factor, then we would need to be able to test/determine it to do our predictions.
Same with the metallurgy of the bullet jacket.

If the work were done, I could imagine a time when the needed variables from the barrel and bullets were supplied with each barrel and lot of bullets.

Just from reading, it would seem something else is also a factor for 'hummer' barrels - perhaps something about the minute dimensions in the bore/chamber/crown?

People have often said that because of the many variables in reloading, we never really have "the best" load for a barrel because we can't extensively test everything. I've wondered if maybe the hummer barrel phenomenon isn't an inherent property of that barrel but the rare occasion when the shooter actually does come across the best load for that given barrel

 

[ELR LVR]

If the metallurgy of the barrel is a factor, then we would need to be able to test/determine it to do our predictions.
Same with the metallurgy of the bullet jacket.

If the work were done, I could imagine a time when the needed variables from the barrel and bullets were supplied with each barrel and lot of bullets.

Just from reading, it would seem something else is also a factor for 'hummer' barrels - perhaps something about the minute dimensions in the bore/chamber/crown?

Don't know how much I buy into "Hummer" barrels.
Only because all the Kriegers I have bought seem equally accurate.
EDIT: back when I heard of Hummer barrels I think is about when barrel makers started Kryo Treating their barrels to stress relieve, this may have been a contributor due to how good of job the Kryo or stress relieving was done? Now, I see more people say
Krieger, Bartlein, Hart etc take your pick they're all equally good.
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Much of it depends on the Smith doing the work and the bedding job.
I do know there can be "Bad" barrels though due to batches of bad steel with inclusions
There can also be "tight" barrels which I have seen

 

[Bill Norris]

People have often said that because of the many variables in reloading, we never really have "the best" load for a barrel because we can't extensively test everything. I've wondered if maybe the hummer barrel phenomenon isn't an inherent property of that barrel but the rare occasion when the shooter actually does come across the best load for that given barrel

I think when it comes to finding a hummer barrel it is luck of the draw or culling thru several ( a batch) to finally find it. Most BR shooters buy in quanity and search from convos I've listened to.

 

[TC260]

I think when it comes to finding a hummer barrel it is luck of the draw or culling thru several ( a batch) to finally find it. Most BR shooters buy in quanity and search from convos I've listened to.

It may strictly be a function of the barrel and nothing else. I'm not saying that can't be true. I'm simply putting forth the idea that a possible reason why it may be so difficult to isolate a specific property of the barrel that makes it a hummer is because the barrel isn't the only variable in the equation.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A bbl that I mentioned earlier, I was the 3rd owner of. Both previous owners said the bbl was a dud. I got it to fireform with. Chucked it in a 3 jaw and chambered it without even indicating it in. It won a lot of fake wood afterwards. That bbl was the main one that sent me down the tuner path. I believe it was vibration related.

I do think that there is more to hummer bbls than magic, too....or I'm just really lucky. I've never considered myself that lucky.

 

[ELR LVR]

Chucked it in a 3 jaw and chambered it without even indicating it in.

That's not the kind of thing one admits in public

 

[Shooter13]

USING AN EZELL TUNER IN MY EXPERIENCE

I have used a tuner for several years now and can tell you with complete confidence that they do work. As one well know shooter “tested” them showing no or moderate that they do work he did not follow instruction. You can’t just randomly turn the tuner. I have followed Mikes instruction to the letter and they have always worked, knowing what way and how much to turn takes experience in using them. I do 15 3 shot groups turning the tuner ONE mark inward and that is after having the tuner installed and finding the best load and bullet depth FIRST! You can literally watch and pretty much know WHERE the point of impact is going to be. I wish I’d saved some of my test from the past, I do this test on EVERY new barrel I have chambered, so say to never move the tuner again once the best “tune” is found, I find this to not be true for me. There is very little movement AFTER my initial placement of the tuner but it can chance some, maybe one or two marks one way or the other (this is where you need to have experience in how the shape of the group will change depending on how (what direction) you move your tuner. Don’t believe me, test for yourself and DON’T SKIP A SINGLE STEP!

Great shooting to all of you. Your slamming me won’t change my mind. Proof might.

 

[Bill Norris]

USING AN EZELL TUNER IN MY EXPERIENCE

I have used a tuner for several years now and can tell you with complete confidence that they do work. As one well know shooter “tested” them showing no or moderate that they do work he did not follow instruction. You can’t just randomly turn the tuner. I have followed Mikes instruction to the letter and they have always worked, knowing what way and how much to turn takes experience in using them. I do 15 3 shot groups turning the tuner ONE mark inward and that is after having the tuner installed and finding the best load and bullet depth FIRST! You can literally watch and pretty much know WHERE the point of impact is going to be. I wish I’d saved some of my test from the past, I do this test on EVERY new barrel I have chambered, so say to never move the tuner again once the best “tune” is found, I find this to not be true for me. There is very little movement AFTER my initial placement of the tuner but it can chance some, maybe one or two marks one way or the other (this is where you need to have experience in how the shape of the group will change depending on how (what direction) you move your tuner. Don’t believe me, test for yourself and DON’T SKIP A SINGLE STEP!

Great shooting to all of you. Your slamming me won’t change my mind. Proof might.

Your experience mirrors mine. Tuners work if the load and shooter does. Testing in conditions shows there is some small amount of adjusting that needs to be done. But you can't wring the threads out of it making these changes. (Keep the movement small)

 

[Jim Ziegler]

What sold me on tuners is last year Bruce and I went to the Nevada LR regional. They shoot e targets and Friday was a practice day with absolutely perfect conditions. My 6.5x47 which shoots pretty dam good at Sac was holding a solid 3/4 MOA waterline at Sparks over about 30 practice shots. I was happy with my practice, shooting mostly 10’s and X’s Being new to tuners I didn’t think about moving the tuner until the very end. I moved it 1 click and the waterline instantly dropped to all just sub X ring over the next 10 shots. I went over to Bruce and saw his Dasher was shooting a just little under 3/4 MOA waterline so I reached over and turned it 1 click and it came down to right at 1/2 then I tuned it one more and instantly it was shooting mostly a solid 1/4 moa waterline! Seeing 2 guns that were in good tune at their home range go out of tune 4000’ higher and then being able to get them back in a click or 2 completely sold me on them!

I had the same experience going from CO to AZ for the SWN. I had my gun shooting lights out here at home then when I got to Phoenix it opened up during Tuesday morning practice. I turned my tuner in 5 lines at a time and after the 3rd adjustment it was back to shooing as good as it had been at home. Made a believer out of me!

 

[Shooter13]

But you can't wring the threads out of it making these changes. (Keep the movement small)

That is the reason he has indicator marks on them so you do it ONE at a time.

 

[Bill Norris]

That is the reason he has indicator marks on them so you do it ONE at a time.

100 %

 

[Rob01]

Depends on the tuner and also barrel contour. I moved two at a time with a lighter barrel and ATS tuner and 3 with a heavier barrel.

 

[Bc'z]

What sold me on tuners is last year Bruce and I went to the Nevada LR regional. They shoot e targets and Friday was a practice day with absolutely perfect conditions. My 6.5x47 which shoots pretty dam good at Sac was holding a solid 3/4 MOA waterline at Sparks over about 30 practice shots. I was happy with my practice, shooting mostly 10’s and X’s Being new to tuners I didn’t think about moving the tuner until the very end. I moved it 1 click and the waterline instantly dropped to all just sub X ring over the next 10 shots. I went over to Bruce and saw his Dasher was shooting a just little under 3/4 MOA waterline so I reached over and turned it 1 click and it came down to right at 1/2 then I tuned it one more and instantly it was shooting mostly a solid 1/4 moa waterline! Seeing 2 guns that were in good tune at their home range go out of tune 4000’ higher and then being able to get them back in a click or 2 completely sold me on them!

Shawn this is the very discussion I was having with @Greg@wfcustom.
My thoughts
If a rifle is in tune at at home, what happens when your away from home and your preloaded ammo is not shooting as it should due to barometric conditions and elevation changes?

I just need to figure out which tuner I want to get
Ezell or DS Fabrication?

 

[JFrank]

I’ve decided to buy one of these fancy dancy tuners and give it a try.

I’ll assume each manufacture would offer a machining diagram for their individual product.