Tuners

[Rob01]

ATS screws right on to muzzle threads and why I went with it. No special threading and you can still use a muzzle device or suppressor with it.

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[Northridge]

I’ve decided to buy one of these fancy dancy tuners and give it a try.

I’ll assume each manufacture would offer a machining diagram for their individual product.

They do yes Jim

Shawn Williams

 

[Alex Wheeler]

People have often said that because of the many variables in reloading, we never really have "the best" load for a barrel because we can't extensively test everything. I've wondered if maybe the hummer barrel phenomenon isn't an inherent property of that barrel but the rare occasion when the shooter actually does come across the best load for that given barrel

I get what your saying. But I dont agree. Most competitors (competitors use the majority of tuners) have the history base of the cartridge they shoot. If you learn a reamer, barrel, bullet, powder combo you can almost plug and play the next barrel. So by barrel 5 you should be splitting hairs. Yes the occaisional odd ball will show but its cheaper to just skip it and chamber a new one because they are so rare. Hummers are rare. I have never had one or chambered one. Good tunes are not amonst those that can. But you have to work at it.

 

[TC260]

I get what your saying. But I dont agree. Most competitors (competitors use the majority of tuners) have the history base of the cartridge they shoot. If you learn a reamer, barrel, bullet, powder combo you can almost plug and play the next barrel. So by barrel 5 you should be splitting hairs. Yes the occaisional odd ball will show but its cheaper to just skip it and chamber a new one because they are so rare. Hummers are rare. I have never had one or chambered one. Good tunes are not amonst those that can. But you have to work at it.

Fair enough. It's just my way of looking at things. If a variable or set of variables hasn't been identified to answer a question I try to stay open to alternative explanations.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

Shawn this is the very discussion I was having with @Greg@wfcustom.
My thoughts
If a rifle is in tune at at home, what happens when your away from home and your preloaded ammo is not shooting as it should due to barometric conditions and elevation changes?

I just need to figure out which tuner I want to get
Ezell or DS Fabrication?

I will preface this with the caveat that I have only used Mike’s tuners on my CF rifles. That said I highly recommend both his tuners and the methodology that he uses. Also the best customer service. Word of warning though, that hillbilly can talk!

 

[Bc'z]

I will preface this with the caveat that I have only used Mike’s tuners on my CF rifles. That said I highly recommend both his tuners and the methodology that he uses. Also the best customer service. Word of warning though, that hillbilly can talk!

Then that makes 3 of us!!

 

[swd]

Shawn this is the very discussion I was having with @Greg@wfcustom.
My thoughts
If a rifle is in tune at at home, what happens when your away from home and your preloaded ammo is not shooting as it should due to barometric conditions and elevation changes?

I just need to figure out which tuner I want to get
Ezell or DS Fabrication?

I’m shooting an Ezell and I’m happy with it. I don’t have them completely figured out. It was also really hot at that shoot too, over 100. Greg’s a damn sharp guy and a hell of a machinist, well worth having a discussion with!

 

[jackieschmidt]

I get what your saying. But I dont agree. Most competitors (competitors use the majority of tuners) have the history base of the cartridge they shoot. If you learn a reamer, barrel, bullet, powder combo you can almost plug and play the next barrel. So by barrel 5 you should be splitting hairs. Yes the occaisional odd ball will show but its cheaper to just skip it and chamber a new one because they are so rare. Hummers are rare. I have never had one or chambered one. Good tunes are not amonst those that can. But you have to work at it.

This is good info.
Many of us Short Range Benchrest Shooters use a very particular make of barrel. In my case, it will either be a Krieger or a Bartlien. These are cut rifled barrels that are very close in their internal measurements. An example is a typical 1-18 30 caliber 4 lands and grooves for VFS. The bore and groove diameter on these are, for all purposes, are identical. I know what combination works in these barrels.

In short, there is very little “tuning” involved. If a barrel will not shoot he load I have found to be right for that combination, it’s probably not going to stay on the rifle. I don’t have time to waste good bullets, powder, and range time messing around with a barrel that I have no faith in.

One of the more difficult things for many shooters to come to terms with is that new barrel is not going to be competitive. I mentored a new shooter last year who had a nice VFS rifle with a new barrel. We spent the better part of a day trying to get it tuned. It also had a tuner from a popular manufacture. I finally told him he had about a 250 17x barrel. It would tease you, but at the end of the day, that’s what it’s going to give you.

That ain’t good enough. But it is one of the realities of the game.

 

[chester999]

One long ranger shooter quit tuners because it was a variable that affected his confidence. As he buys at least 4 barrels at a time. If it doesn't shoot it comes off and on to the next.

 

[Smokedpole]

I built a new LR F-class rifle a few months ago chambered in a Sherman 7 max. I also purchased the Ezell tuner based on recommendations. I was unfamiliar with the 7 max so I pulled the tuner off during load development and barrel break in. Once I was happy with bullet jump , neck tension, primer depth, shoulder bump and powder charger at 600 (4 shots- .8) on a paper target. I put the tuner back on with the hope that the tuner would make my good group better. I turned the tuner out 3 turns and started 3 shot groups on mark number one . The tune came back in at mark 10 and 11 with a nice wind and looked to be 1/2 inch on an electronic target. The tune went away on mark 12 and 13. I went back to mark 10.5 and the group tightened up. My thought process was the fact that I don’t have the ability to analyze group patterns at 100 yards nor do i trust groups at 100 out at 600. But I can tell the difference between a 1.25 and a .5 inch group at 600 fwiw

 

[Fuj]

But I can tell the difference between a 1.25 and a .5 inch group at 600 fwiw

I had 100 cases to fire form on a new barrel. I put Mikes PDT on it, and
went right to 300 yards. Mind you it was just fire forming ammo, but yeah
at 300 yards, the group size changes can look a little more dynamic. This
new cat and rifle I'm working on is meant for 300 yards/meters. I'm not
going to waste ammo tuning at 100, I'll tell ya'......

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I had 100 cases to fire form on a new barrel. I put Mikes PDT on it, and
went right to 300 yards. Mind you it was just fire forming ammo, but yeah
at 300 yards, the group size changes can look a little more dynamic. This
new cat and rifle I'm working on is meant for 300 yards/meters. I'm not
going to waste ammo tuning at 100, I'll tell ya'......

Pretty busy, so I'll make this short for now, but, yes, once someone is very familiar with using their tuner and interpreting their results, tuning can and should be done at the yardage you plan to compete. I believe you hold that experience and you know what to look for. That's ultimately how it should be done.

Your initial tuner test(sine test) essentially becomes your owners manual, telling you what to do to correct tune and recognizing when to do it. It also establishes your "base setting" from which you'll likely never move from more than a few marks. What I want to clarify is that I believe that initial tuner testing should be at 100 with a cf. There are several very specific things that the tuner test will show that can easily be obscured by wind etc. We all know that the wind just becomes a bigger factor as distance increases. That makes initial testing less reliable...and nobody likes a chinese owners manual. I just think that skipping this step would be doing one's self an injustice when getting started. I typically will shoot the test with any new bbl. The test can be abbreviated a bit once you are familiar enough to know what you're looking for from it. It sounds a lot harder than it is and the sine test is often like a light bulb moment when people see it and how it gives them so much needed info.

But yessir, what you are doing is how it works once you are familiar with them and I know you are. I'm confident that you'll do great. FWIW, as long as it shoots good, you can do the tuner test while fire forming. Then fine tune for the fired brass.

 

[ELR LVR]

Fair enough. It's just my way of looking at things. If a variable or set of variables hasn't been identified to answer a question I try to stay open to alternative explanations.

What variables have not been identified ? Within load development the only variables not yet identified are the loads that have not yet been tested.
I see many people tie one hand behind their back by dictating their rifle is going to shoot with
N-133 or Varget whether the rifle likes it or not.
Largely based upon the fact that's what everyone else is doing and shooting one hole groups with.
and never even try 748 or 2230 or Benchmark or Ramshot etc

I dont know if it is so much a hummer barrel thing, or just that when a guy buys 10 barrels at once to cull the hummer barrel out that lot...
and expects to dictate his 31.3 grns of Varget is going to shoot one holers,
-----odds are simply better having 1 out of 10 barrels actually may do so.
When he could have tried 10 different powders instead.
And the lucky hummer barrel is more that he actually got a barrel with the corresonding harmonics to be a one hole shooting barrel with the small window load he dictates all PPC's must shoot according to law.
(or whatever Cartridge)
Most of the powders and loads I use for example, I see nobody using, such as W-748.
Everyone wants Varget for some reason.
Even when someone asks advice for loads, they pick the most popular and then try to dictate to their rifle.
Those types of people have a loooong linear learning curve to hike up instead of it being exponentially quicker.
----------------------------------
So far I have not seen a hummer barrel, only piss poor load development
Or extensive load development

 

[TC260]

What variables have not been identified ? Within load development the only variables not yet identified are the loads that have not yet been tested.
I see many people tie one hand behind their back by dictating their rifle is going to shoot with
N-133 or Varget whether the rifle likes it or not.
Largely based upon the fact that's what everyone else is doing and shooting one hole groups with.
and never even try 748 or 2230 or Benchmark or Ramshot etc

I dont know if it is so much a hummer barrel thing, or just that when a guy buys 10 barrels at once to cull the hummer barrel out that lot...
and expects to dictate his 31.3 grns of Varget is going to shoot one holers,
-----odds are simply better having 1 out of 10 barrels actually may do so.
When he could have tried 10 different powders instead.
And the lucky hummer barrel is more that he actually got a barrel with the corresonding harmonics to be a one hole shooting barrel with the small window load he dictates all PPC's must shoot according to law.
(or whatever Cartridge)
Most of the powders and loads I use for example, I see nobody using, such as W-748.
Everyone wants Varget for some reason.
Even when someone asks advice for loads, they pick the most popular and then try to dictate to their rifle.
Those types of people have a loooong linear learning curve to hike up instead of it being exponentially quicker.
----------------------------------
So far I have not seen a hummer barrel, only piss poor load development
Or extensive load development

My comment about unknwn variables was general in nature, not specific. If we aren't able to identify the specific set of conditions that cause it to occur then there's aspects of it we don't fully understand yet.

 

[ELR LVR]

My comment about unknwn variables was general in nature, not specific. If we aren't able to identify the specific set of conditions that cause it to occur then there's aspects of it we don't fully understand yet.

Within the accuracy equation we must turn all variables into known constants.
If we have a constant velocity, a constant pressure, a constant reliable ignition, a constant bullet weight etc etc
And if we take that equation and reduce it down to its simplest terms....
The only other variable is , the shooter and the atmoshpheric conditions.
There's a guy on here that shot a .009" record group, I gotta think he knows these things too
(one other variable that can become a constant is the inner surface finish and dia. of your barrel which I see nobody talking about here but is one thing I address with my guns, that's a hint for ya)

 

[JEFFPPC]

Fire suit is on. Very few have used tuners as long as I have. For the life of me I can't understand why you find a load with the tuner off the barrel and then hang the tuner on which I think pretty much guarantees a significant change in harmonics. I don't believe in using the tuner to 'make' the tune but to easily get it back when it starts to go away from wear. Tune your gun with the tuner on and good to go. Tune starts to go a bit off, usually able to get it back eith a dozen shots or less. It's so simple and it seems many are making it so hard. All the answers are on your target.

 

[TC260]

Within the accuracy equation we must turn all variables into known constants.
If we have a constant velocity, a constant pressure, a constant reliable ignition, a constant bullet weight etc etc
And if we take that equation and reduce it down to its simplest terms....
The only other variable is , the shooter and the atmoshpheric conditions.
There's a guy on here that shot a .009" record group, I gotta think he knows these things too
(one other variable that can become a constant is the inner surface finish and dia. of your barrel which I see nobody talking about here but is one thing I address with my guns, that's a hint for ya)

I'm sorry my friend, you're going to have to find somebody else to debate this with because I don't have a position on this issue, I simply don't have a horse in this race. I am interested in continuing to hear what you have to say though and what you've found. You have a lot of good information to add to the discussion and I don't have any reason to debate it. Hope you understand.

 

[swd]

Fire suit is on. Very few have used tuners as long as I have. For the life of me I can't understand why you find a load with the tuner off the barrel and then hang the tuner on which I think pretty much guarantees a significant change in harmonics. I don't believe in using the tuner to 'make' the tune but to easily get it back when it starts to go away from wear. Tune your gun with the tuner on and good to go. Tune starts to go a bit off, usually able to get it back eith a dozen shots or less. It's so simple and it seems many are making it so hard. All the answers are on your target.

This!!

 

[Bill Norris]

Fire suit is on. Very few have used tuners as long as I have. For the life of me I can't understand why you find a load with the tuner off the barrel and then hang the tuner on which I think pretty much guarantees a significant change in harmonics. I don't believe in using the tuner to 'make' the tune but to easily get it back when it starts to go away from wear. Tune your gun with the tuner on and good to go. Tune starts to go a bit off, usually able to get it back eith a dozen shots or less. It's so simple and it seems many are making it so hard. All the answers are on your target.

AGREE 100%

 

[JFrank]

I looked into buying a popular tuner but the webpage didn’t have an option to buy it.

Oh well