Tuner Test - results confusing

[Tim Singleton]

No Tim. It was another thread all together. This one is very tame by comparison.

I wondered
Didn't see anything here crazy

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Note the wind speed and direction. It's tough to shoot anything to its potential in 13-16mph wind from 10 o'clock, while freezing your butt off. Lol! But, knowing that info is important to reading the groups as best I can. This one is tough due to wind but we talked it over and I think he has something to work with but should test around those settings in better conditions to confirm. It's clear that some people were paying attention before. Thanks!

 

[SG4247]

Ok, ice stopped falling from the sky and it warmed up and wind was mild. Wind in my face straight on at 6 mph. Still noticed an ocasional left to right gust at 10-11 o’clock. Had some streamers up and might have got caught on a couple. This is Oklahoma - so the wind blows all the damn time.
Dip weed operator turned the tuner backwards to 14 on the first adjustment.

 

[SG4247]

So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?

 

[Tim Singleton]

So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?

no one is going to be able to answer this one.
you are just going to have to spend the time measured in years to figure this out
by thousands of rounds spent shooting these conditions evaluating the effect of the changes you make thru the day.
I wish there were, but no short cuts in this
some may tell you move the tuner in or out as temp goes up. all that can be gained from that is to move it and decide for yourself what works

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So, if you were shooting a 600 yard f-open match next month with this exact rifle/load, where would you set the tuner initially, and then what would you with the information above as conditions change through out the day?

Are you talking to me? I'd say 14 or 23 but the test is supposed to be 15 groups so I can see groups on either side of what appears to be a sweet spot. I understand about wind, especially this time of year. Ultimately, it's no different than trying to tune in the wind without a tuner. Best advice is find better conditions. A switchy headwind is hard to shoot and I'd be guessing at which groups you got caught in a switch on. There was more info regarding which way I'd go and why in the thread that was removed. I've been asked not to post regarding that thread but was also told that he might put it back up when he has time to clean it up, so I'm in a tough spot here. The shots fired in a switch need to be marked and fired again. I know it's damn near impossible to get 45 perfect shots off, so that's why. You have to understand, you're asking me to decipher an incomplete test fired in a nasty tuning condition and to pick which groups are tune related and which are shooter error. Group shape and position help, that's how I come to 14 or 23, but the test needs to be better. Don't get me wrong, it's better than some I see but there is a rhyme and a reason why I'm very specific about how to do the test and that any shot fired in a switch be marked and shot again. You're on the right track though.

I'm predominantly looking for a sweet spot at top and at bottom, followed or precluded by a group that is straight vertical, followed by another that goes diagonal up and to the right, consecutively. A switchy headwind can cause the vertical but it won't cause groups that go up and to the right, from a rh twist bbl. BUT, wind might keep those shapes from appearing, which is what this looks like to me. Take say 22, 21 and 20 for example. We have a good group at 22, straight vertical at 21 and 20 might have been up and to the right, if not for wind making it go pretty much straight vertical.

Wind matters a lot. Would you do standard load work(fine tuning) in the condition you were shooting in? Now imagine doing it at 600 or 1000.

You're not doing too bad and it looks like the gun and load are gonna shoot but fine tuning needs to be in the best conditions possible. You have to trust every single shot, or fire again. Once you get through this part of it, you don't ever really have to do it again, but it's not a bad idea. You can go to the top and bottom sweet spots and work around those.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

no one is going to be able to answer this one.
you are just going to have to spend the time measured in years to figure this out
by thousands of rounds spent shooting these conditions evaluating the effect of the changes you make thru the day.
I wish there were, but no short cuts in this
some may tell you move the tuner in or out as temp goes up. all that can be gained from that is to move it and decide for yourself what works

I agree that it takes time to learn how to read groups. Especially when the wind is blowing while tuning, but there are group shapes that can rule wind out, which greatly helps. A GOOD test target shows which way to go with the tuner based on group shapes. Just like it shows which way to go with powder charge or seating depth, IME. I contend that anyone that can tune by traditional methods can tune with a tuner because the effects on target are very similar, if not the same, if broken down to small enough changes in either.

example...If you go to a match with 29.0 gr of n133 in a ppc and it shoots the worst it ever has, how far up would you go? Does 1.0-1.2 gr sound about right? That's a lot but you are completely out of tune at 29.0. So how much to bring it to full on tune? How much for almost a bullet hole of straight vertical? Does .3 sound close?
Typical sr rifle with my tuner...1 mark out is straight vertical and 4 marks, completely out of tune....worst it's ever shot.

 

[SG4247]

Are you talking to me? I'd say 14 or 23 but the test is supposed to be 15 groups so I can see groups on either side of what appears to be a sweet spot. I understand about wind, especially this time of year. Ultimately, it's no different than trying to tune in the wind without a tuner. Best advice is find better conditions. A switchy headwind is hard to shoot and I'd be guessing at which groups you got caught in a switch on. There was more info regarding which way I'd go and why in the thread that was removed. I've been asked not to post regarding that thread but was also told that he might put it back up when he has time to clean it up, so I'm in a tough spot here. The shots fired in a switch need to be marked and fired again. I know it's damn near impossible to get 45 perfect shots off, so that's why. You have to understand, you're asking me to decipher an incomplete test fired in a nasty tuning condition and to pick which groups are tune related and which are shooter error. Group shape and position help, that's how I come to 14 or 23, but the test needs to be better. Don't get me wrong, it's better than some I see but there is a rhyme and a reason why I'm very specific about how to do the test and that any shot fired in a switch be marked and shot again. You're on the right track though.

I'm predominantly looking for a sweet spot at top and at bottom, followed or precluded by a group that is straight vertical, followed by another that goes diagonal up and to the right, consecutively. A switchy headwind can cause the vertical but it won't cause groups that go up and to the right, from a rh twist bbl. BUT, wind might keep those shapes from appearing, which is what this looks like to me. Take say 22, 21 and 20 for example. We have a good group at 22, straight vertical at 21 and 20 might have been up and to the right, if not for wind making it go pretty much straight vertical.

Wind matters a lot. Would you do standard load work(fine tuning) in the condition you were shooting in? Now imagine doing it at 600 or 1000.

You're not doing too bad and it looks like the gun and load are gonna shoot but fine tuning needs to be in the best conditions possible. You have to trust every single shot, or fire again. Once you get through this part of it, you don't ever really have to do it again, but it's not a bad idea. You can go to the top and bottom sweet spots and work around those.

Well I’m talking to anyone who knows more than me (everyone in this case). But thank you gunsandgunsmithing & Tim for responding.

So, I totally understand that in shooting, we create tests (experiments) and then study the empirical evidence from those tests, and move forward incrementally. There aren’t too many shortcuts.

However, just as we all know 30 grains of Varget in a 6BR is great place to start, I would think there are trends and lessons learned about tuners, that will get me (and others) to a better place faster. At my age, I don't have years.

Not interested in debating or whatever the other thread was working, I am just interested in the observations and experience of others.

More comments are appreciated.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Well I’m talking to anyone who knows more than me (everyone in this case). But thank you gunsandgunsmithing & Tim for responding.

So, I totally understand that in shooting, we create tests (experiments) and then study the empirical evidence from those tests, and move forward incrementally. There aren’t too many shortcuts.

However, just as we all know 30 grains of Varget in a 6BR is great place to start, I would think there are trends and lessons learned about tuners, that will get me (and others) to a better place faster. At my age, I don't have years.

Not interested in debating or whatever the other thread was working, I am just interested in the observations and experience of others.

More comments are appreciated.

That tuner test IS the shortcut. You have to quantify the value of any adjustment or you're guessing, right? The test does that. That test shows where the groups are small, how far from in to out of tune, top and bottom of the swing and the group shapes you're looking for. I don't know a better or quicker way to get that much info in roughly 45 rounds. Gaining the same info from tuning with powder and/or seating depth will take longer, IME.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Whether it's Fclass or bench rest coming back after lunch with a broken gun after shooting well in the morning is a problem for everyone.
What I'm saying is you have to spend the time in practice shooting groups in the AM then try your tuner adjustment in the afternoon
After much practice you will see I need to go out one mark per 5 degree or whatever your combination tells you

In short range we have the benefit of unlimited sighters so we can try this in real time with either a tuner adjustment or powder.
Fclass you don't. so much practice neded to find what will work some what repeatably

 

[JFrank]

I think the tune window is very small

 

[SG4247]

I think the tune window is very small

In my case, or in general?

 

[JFrank]

In my case, or in general?

Yes in your case, we talked about it earlier in the thread.
I don’t know crap about tuners but what I see is two settings, 18 or 23 beyond that the load is changing for the worse.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think the tune window is very small

I don't think there is anything in the target that tells us if the best setting holds all day or not. I've seen the same setting hold all day at times and other times, not. Just an approximation here but, with my tuner, I've never had to move more than two marks in a day that the temp swing was 40-45 degrees. You could surmise from that that one mark could potentially hold for as much as about 20 degrees, based on that alone.

 

[JFrank]

I think that’s what I’m saying’ the tune ‘may not’ hold and you have no where to go, these groups are only a hundred yards now go to 600 and cross your fingers for good luck that each side of those settings don’t start spitting rounds whether the the temp or just increased distance the window is still small.
I’m not an expert of course just replying because @SG4247 asked

 

[SG4247]

Thx All.
I can repeat this test at 300 yards easy enough in low wind conditions, at like 18-25 or 20-25 positions if you all think that would give me some further insight. Cant go any further out than that until range construction is finished.

I could run it at a couple of different temperatures (days) also at 300.

 

[JFrank]

Thx All.
I can repeat this test at 300 yards easy enough in low wind conditions, at like 18-25 or 20-25 positions if you all think that would give me some further insight. Cant go any further out than that until range construction is finished.

I could run it at a couple of different temperatures (days) also at 300.

We always want good data’ you already have this data and have a pretty good idea where this road is leading so I would suggest if you have the time and Resourses shooting the same foremat with the next node /charge weight ( referring to post #30 something) and hopefully your window is wider.
Jim

 

[SG4247]

Right or wrong, I decided to run the test again at 100 yards this morning, but this time with .3 grain more powder and a #200 primer. Temp about the same, and really calm winds at 2:00 3 mph. The bottom row is today. Prolly should have gone further up to 55.6-55.7.

 

[Bill Norris]

Right or wrong, I decided to run the test again at 100 yards this morning, but this time with .3 grain more powder and a #200 primer. Temp about the same, and really calm winds at 2:00 3 mph. The bottom row is today. Prolly should have gone further up to 55.6-55.7.

Yea, looks like the powder charge needed to go on up a bit.