KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
Stealing a Willie Nelson line here
If you have a 25 cal, I don't have to explain.
If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand.
Quarter Bore Resurgence
- Thread starter 257Roberts
- Start date
If you have a 25 cal, I don't have to explain.
If I have to explain it to you, you wouldn't understand.
WOW! Just read all 10+ pages. Lots of opinions, thoughts, feelings, etc.. ALL GOOD if not equally accurate, but I love to read the opinions.
I've come and gone a few times on .257-caliber rifles.. MANY decades ago I had a 'FN'-actioned 25-284 sporting rifle with 26" Douglas barrel; don't remember much about it except I finished a Fajen Aristocrat stock for it.
Have a Savage 12 benchrest rifle that came in 6.5-284.. With my REreplaced-joint right shoulder, this'n kicked a little too much so I rebarreled it to 6.5 Creedmoor.. Still a little too much recoil--YES, I know I'm a wimp, but it's me and not you firing that rifle!--so I tried 6XC.. NOTHING worked for me, perhaps because I've lost most of whatever long-range-shooting skill I ever had*.
In early 2021 I ordered a new Shilen barrel from Northland in 25WSSM, for (1) the change in bullet diameter; (2) my desire for a 'modern', short, fat case, and (3) feeling the mid-40s powder charges would be a good balance between velocities and barrel life.. Unfortunately, the predicted-two-month wait turned into 6 months, and by that time I had lost all interest in LR shooting**. Sometime in 2022 I assembled that 25WSSM barrel into the Savage, but that's as far as I got.
This summer I've renewed my interest in shooting and decided to get my 25 running.. Have accumulated MANY bullets, powders, and primers and am about to start loading them.. We'll see how that goes.. But it's still hotter than the hubs of hell in Phoenix, so it'll be a few more weeks before I get out.
I've thought about several other 25s to buy, and just this week I ordered a new 28" barrel in 25Creed from X-Caliber and am still looking, unsuccesfully, for loading data.
* I had plenty one 2007 weekend at Three Points shooting range west of Tucson, shooting a 6.5-284 Shehane-built 14-pounder, producing a 4-9/16" 5-shot group and a 7-odd-inch 10-shot group, winning 3 of 4 trophies.
** Yes, I'm a bit flighty!
I've come and gone a few times on .257-caliber rifles.. MANY decades ago I had a 'FN'-actioned 25-284 sporting rifle with 26" Douglas barrel; don't remember much about it except I finished a Fajen Aristocrat stock for it.
Have a Savage 12 benchrest rifle that came in 6.5-284.. With my REreplaced-joint right shoulder, this'n kicked a little too much so I rebarreled it to 6.5 Creedmoor.. Still a little too much recoil--YES, I know I'm a wimp, but it's me and not you firing that rifle!--so I tried 6XC.. NOTHING worked for me, perhaps because I've lost most of whatever long-range-shooting skill I ever had*.
In early 2021 I ordered a new Shilen barrel from Northland in 25WSSM, for (1) the change in bullet diameter; (2) my desire for a 'modern', short, fat case, and (3) feeling the mid-40s powder charges would be a good balance between velocities and barrel life.. Unfortunately, the predicted-two-month wait turned into 6 months, and by that time I had lost all interest in LR shooting**. Sometime in 2022 I assembled that 25WSSM barrel into the Savage, but that's as far as I got.
This summer I've renewed my interest in shooting and decided to get my 25 running.. Have accumulated MANY bullets, powders, and primers and am about to start loading them.. We'll see how that goes.. But it's still hotter than the hubs of hell in Phoenix, so it'll be a few more weeks before I get out.
I've thought about several other 25s to buy, and just this week I ordered a new 28" barrel in 25Creed from X-Caliber and am still looking, unsuccesfully, for loading data.
* I had plenty one 2007 weekend at Three Points shooting range west of Tucson, shooting a 6.5-284 Shehane-built 14-pounder, producing a 4-9/16" 5-shot group and a 7-odd-inch 10-shot group, winning 3 of 4 trophies.
** Yes, I'm a bit flighty!
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You don't mention what twist rate your 25 WSSM barrel is.
For my Browning A Bolt SSA it's a 1:10 twist.
Powders in the 4350 & RL17 burn rate do well for the 115gr Berger VLD.
8", plenty fast enough for the Berger 135 and, I assume, the 134 Hornady..
Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
I think recoil is a big draw of the 25 caliber. When it gets down to it, a 6.5 139 gr kicks pretty good. not as heavy as a 308, but shooting one for an afternoon would kick my ass. Honestly.
p-man
Gold $$ Contributor
Of two rifles - identical in every respect except caliber firing bullets of the same weight and design - with the same powder charge - the smaller caliber will exhibit more recoil. With the same powder but charge weights altered to produce equal velocities, the smaller caliber will exhibit even more recoil. Just sayin' in case someone draws the wrong conclusion from this discussion.
And now, even before I shoot once the 25WSSM, I'm looking for a match-grade 28" 7-twist barrel in 25-284, without success.. I'm considering buying an unchambered Shilen from Northland and having James chamber it with my reamer, assuming I buy one.. (Already have 500 Norma 6.5-284 cases on standby!)
But my rifle priority is to get my Savage 6CM Precision Rifle running to see if it's worth keeping.
But my rifle priority is to get my Savage 6CM Precision Rifle running to see if it's worth keeping.
In the first edition of The Rifle Magazine (Jan-Feb 1969) there is an article entitled "The .25 Will Rise Again", written by Don Zutz. He stated that "it may well be that the .25 caliber is not yet dead. In fact, it may just be coming of age". Unfortunately, the past 50 plus years has proved him wrong. Of the nine different standard cartridges he discussed only one of them is still being chambered in a production rifle, the 257 Weatherby Magnum. Of the five wildcat cartridges he discussed one became a Factory round later in 1969, the 25-06 Remington. While the other three cartridges sound interesting I have never seen a rifle chambered for any of them (25-35 ICL Coyote, 25 Souper and the 25-284). The last wildcat .25 caliber cartridge, the 257 Roberts Ackley Improved well, I love it!
The last best effort to introduce a new .25 caliber cartridge was the 25 WSSM. It's a sad story, bottom-line is it isn't being chambered in a rifle today. At least not one written about in the Gun Digest or the Shooter's Bible. I certainly haven't seen any ammo or brass for it in any gun store. The same can be said about the 25 CM and the 25-45 Sharps.
I really like the 1/4 bore. I have used the 257 Roberts Ackey Improved for over 40 years. Three years ago, I picked up at a gun show a 25-35 Winchester built on a 788 Remington bolt action. It shoots like a Laser Beam. Since it has a 1-14 twist, I have to use bullets no heavier than 90 grains. And my newest, is a 250 Savage Ackley Improved, also on a 788 Remington.
There is no Quarter Bore Resurgence. What there is, is a group of cartridge/caliber geeks, who like me really like the 1/4 bore.
400 Whelen
The last best effort to introduce a new .25 caliber cartridge was the 25 WSSM. It's a sad story, bottom-line is it isn't being chambered in a rifle today. At least not one written about in the Gun Digest or the Shooter's Bible. I certainly haven't seen any ammo or brass for it in any gun store. The same can be said about the 25 CM and the 25-45 Sharps.
I really like the 1/4 bore. I have used the 257 Roberts Ackey Improved for over 40 years. Three years ago, I picked up at a gun show a 25-35 Winchester built on a 788 Remington bolt action. It shoots like a Laser Beam. Since it has a 1-14 twist, I have to use bullets no heavier than 90 grains. And my newest, is a 250 Savage Ackley Improved, also on a 788 Remington.
There is no Quarter Bore Resurgence. What there is, is a group of cartridge/caliber geeks, who like me really like the 1/4 bore.
400 Whelen
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Infrequent Shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
OK, I need some first hand opinions and experience of SMK 100gr 25 cal. How good have you got it to shoot? Do you use it in a 'target' rifle? What are your most accurate 25 cal bullets? thanks.
I think there IS a quarter bore resurgence. The the rise of the heavy bullets for the . 25 caliber along with the 25 CM and several wildcats emerging, it's become a force to reckon with just as the 6.5 was when it did the same. Question now is, will it stick around ? Will it keep moving forward and gain more ground with heavier bullet introductions ? I think so.
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
The post mentioning the 6/284 being a barrel throat blow touch is no BS, but thinking the 25/06 or even worse, the AI version, is any better is stuff most understand as fake news! They are even worse, not to mention over bore!!
I don't know why anyone shooting and properly loading the 257 AI can't reach Weatherby velocities. I had no trouble, but used a 27.5" barrel. I also found the 257 AI to be the most efficient quarter bore I've shot. 10 twist held me to 85 to 100 grain bullets, but 4350 and 4831 were great, didn't need slower powders that would be welcome with 8 twist and heavier bullets. But would expect the same.
For target, I think the 250 AI would be my go to, or like nakneker said, 25 x47L. This is where I would go if I was willing to give up some velocity for accuracy with good barrel life!
But make no mistake. 25/06 as well as the 257 Weatherby have never found a huge following, I think probably because of short barrel life, less than forgiving load development, and over bore case capacity is why. This is just my findings comparing them to the 257 Roberts AI or the slightly smaller 250 Savage AI, in my opinion a much better choice. But that 25x47L sure sounds like one I missed out on!
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B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Soooo does that mean I can add you to my petition for Hornady to make a .257 140gr A-Tip with something like a G1 .700 & G7 .360 ??
Adam in WI
Practically lives here
How much pressure are you generating running at Weatherby speeds?
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
The joy of working with any wildcat is understanding excessive pressure, when you have no way to measure exact pressure.
It is like knowing maximum Roberts pressure limits listed in manuals is severely over exaggerated if you understand a modern action is capable of the same limits as any other cartridge!
Common sense is priceless, and if a modern action is capable of 60,000 psi with a 300 mag then so is the action safe with 60,000 psi chambered in 257 Roberts. One must also understand that is done with a safety factor, not a failure point.
Then understanding any cartridge of the same caliber needing special powders like Rutumbo to fill the case to reach such pressure needs a longer barrel to benefit the full burn benefit. Now the same pressure in a smaller case using 4831 or 7828 can give even more velocity using a shorter tube to optimize this burn.
There are so many variables to determine optimum pressure, bore, case, barrel length, and finding not only the most efficient combination, but that safe pressure becomes an art we must work with and approach slowly while looking for many different signs of reaching unsafe pressure at the same time.
But trust me, if I can use R-P 257 Roberts brass, while understanding the same brass displaying a +P designation on the head is no different than without it, and still hold primers after 3 or 4 firings, we are talking very safe pressure!
Sadly many not understanding anything I just said think that +P means it's different brass, or that 48,000 max pressure is the maximum for a 257 Roberts, and not understanding why that would be the limit, or understanding military type Mauser, Springfield, and other dated action differance from a 700 Remington, 77 Ruger, 110 Savage, etc etc, should never play where absolute pressures cannot be confirmed!
A lifetime of loading cartridges without pressure data is something you simply can't teach or explain in a post, and most know when we are talking cartridges such as 257AI, 25/284, 25x47L, 25x35, all in custom chambers, are territory most work without a means of verifying absolute pressures. But most who enjoy working with such combinations are extremely experienced working with and understanding a multitude of variables pertaining to the combination being brought to be.
Those that have to ask an absolute, should probably refrain from playing with such combinations, without supervision, or until more experiance is obtained.
This is just the way it is.
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Adam in WI
Practically lives here
In other words, you have no idea... QuickLoad or GRT can tell you a lot closer than guessin. If you were loading them to the same pressure you're not going to be getting Weatherby speeds with ~30% less capacity.
nmkid
Gold $$ Contributor
I've shot the 25-06 since the 1970s. I bought it while needing a rifle with minimal recoil because of having shoulder surgery. Never got rid of it. Many deer have fallen to it. Now I'm playing with a 257WBY and starting to fall in love again. LOL. This past week I shot a 3-shot group measuring .227 at a chornographed 3730 PFS.
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
You've got it figured out, sounds like you should stick to Quickloads and manuals, and leave the art of wildcatting to WILDCATTER'S!
Trust me over 60 years of loading anything from factory chambers to some that at the time were never heard of.
1) I have proven from experiance how valuable understanding the differance from what is general, (this is what manuals and software refer to).
2) But how valuable learning to read each combination in individual firearms is! Not to mention how much better results in both accuracy and performance can be when you learn to use the manuals and software for no more than a general begining point, and then work from their.
You just can't Wildcat from a manual, or today, software. You have to understand how general these options have to refer to when combining all variables to give accurate information safely. VARIABLES THAT WILDCATERS CAN ELIMINATE WHEN WORKING WITH INDIVIDUAL COMBINATIONS.
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Adam in WI
Practically lives here
Lol.. you're ignoring the point. There is no magic shape of brass that is going to let that round hang with a Weatherby Mag without excessive pressure. Do I doubt you're getting that kind of performance from an A.I Bob? No... Do I believe you're doing it anywhere south of 65,000 psi? Also no... Ask the 22 Creedmoor shooters what pressure their 88 grain/3500 fps loads are pushing. They'll give an answer similar to yours.
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