Over Annealed?

[EricE555]

I got an Annealer and annealed my brass for the first time since starting reloading 25-30 years ago. I tried to be careful to achieve a glow but not bright red but this batch was done in the daylight and I couldn't control it very well. Once the cases were loaded I found there was little to no neck grip on the bullet. I had to resort to crimping to achieve something that would stay together.

Did I over do it? If so, do I just back off to half that time? How should I do it in the future in order to still have proper neck tension. I have the stick form of tempilstick 650 but it wouldn't mark the brass so it was of no use. Do I have to resort to a neck bushing die? I will if I have to but I didn't want to complicate my life this much.

Any advice people have will be considered (now that I have spent $300 on an annealer and want to make use of it).

 

[TTE]

Expanding the necks, resizing (loading) then firing will bring back some hardness to the brass I think.
As to time in the flame, not able to tell. How hot was the flame ? How long (in seconds) was the brass in the flame. What kind of brass and cartridge case ? Lots of missing information.

 

[jepp2]

Did I over do it? If so, do I just back off to half that time? How should I do it in the future in order to still have proper neck tension.

650 degree will not anneal brass. It will only stress relieve. Regarding your concern about over annealing brass and what you experienced, maybe something else is going on. I find this test to be very interesting.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I got an Annealer and annealed my brass for the first time since starting reloading 25-30 years ago. I tried to be careful to achieve a glow but not bright red but this batch was done in the daylight and I couldn't control it very well. Once the cases were loaded I found there was little to no neck grip on the bullet. I had to resort to crimping to achieve something that would stay together.

Did I over do it? If so, do I just back off to half that time? How should I do it in the future in order to still have proper neck tension. I have the stick form of tempilstick 650 but it wouldn't mark the brass so it was of no use. Do I have to resort to a neck bushing die? I will if I have to but I didn't want to complicate my life this much.

Any advice people have will be considered (now that I have spent $300 on an annealer and want to make use of it).

It does sound like you've over done it.

The details are important, like TTE points out. Without them, no one can have any idea what's going on.

What Annealer machine are you using?
What brass are you annealing (make and caliber)?
If you're using a pencil flame torch, just how is the case neck in the flame (blue flame touching neck and where on the neck)?
How long were they in the flame?
Was this in a cold garage like area (amount of time needed may vary depending on how cold the brass is to start with)?

A picture of your brass could help a little.

You really need to get the timing down by testing first in a darkened room. Once you have the timing down, then you can just do the rest in daylight or a lighted room.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I use discarded brass (loose pockets) to 'Calibrate' my dark room red glow.

 

[Webster]

I got an Annealer and annealed my brass for the first time since starting reloading 25-30 years ago. I tried to be careful to achieve a glow but not bright red but this batch was done in the daylight and I couldn't control it very well. Once the cases were loaded I found there was little to no neck grip on the bullet. I had to resort to crimping to achieve something that would stay together.

Did I over do it? If so, do I just back off to half that time? How should I do it in the future in order to still have proper neck tension. I have the stick form of tempilstick 650 but it wouldn't mark the brass so it was of no use. Do I have to resort to a neck bushing die? I will if I have to but I didn't want to complicate my life this much.

Any advice people have will be considered (now that I have spent $300 on an annealer and want to make use of it).

How about some details like total time in the flame. How long was the neck red? I doubt you over annealed the cases. Sqeeze the neck hard with your fingers and gentle pressure with pliers. In either case you should not easily deform the neck. Compare an unannealed neck to annealed by how hard it is to make the neck very slightly oval. I heat with single flame till red for 1-2 seconds. Sqeezing the necks I think they are as hard as a new case. Never had a problem setting bullets. You need a bushing die so you can adjust the tension.

You cannot anneal at 650F. I used a lot of stick Tempilsticks at work. We were doing hot rolling studies on steel plates. As the plates came off the rolling mill, I had three temp sticks in my hand with different temp values. The proper way to use them is to wipe them across a hot surface. You cannot touch them on a case neck because they cool to fast when pulled out of the flame. Since we are flash annealing the necks are only at max temp for a fraction of a second. They have to reach about 1050F or a little more to do any annealing.

On a lot of the annealing videos I watch it seems that they put the very hot tip of the flame on the neck. I push the neck into the flame so it wraps around the neck. I think I get more even heating. On some of the videos when the case comes out of the flame there is obvious dark and red areas from uneven heating. Pushing the single flame into the neck I get even red in about 9-10 seconds. This tells me I don't need the hottest part of the flame point touching the neck. I rotate the cases in the flame using a drill. The cases are held by my neck turning case holder.

 

[EricE555]

I think I covered all the questions. Let me know if I missed any.

Regular blue propane bottle/torch, pencil flame head.
6.5 PRC lapua brass
I did not record how long in flame, I will next time. I did take note of the # setting on the variable motor and repeated that test this morning in a cold garage which may vary the results. Result was 30 seconds in the flame which seems way longer than before. If I had to guess I would say about 20 seconds in the flame before.
I am using "The Ugly Annealer"
Garage was room temp when I annealed.

Dark room red glow timing seems like best idea, then record time in flame, not # on machine.
I just have to do that when it is dark out since my garage has too many windows to try and cover.

I have reloaded all the brass I have but here is a pic of the annealed and loaded brass.

https://imgur.com/a/WC8jD3p

 

[dusterdave173]

I use discarded brass (loose pockets) to 'Calibrate' my dark room red glow.

Me too--I have a box of "test dummy brass"
I got an AGS--watched a dozen videos--used my test dummy brass until I was confident--did my first batch of 6BR that had a few firings on it and was shooting Great!
Upon reloading that brass I found seating bullets went much better--only a couple out of 50 that did not feel exactly the same seating pressure--it shot great--can't say better Yet--but all went well and I noticed when sizing that it made it much easier to get it on the $
All in all I am sold---bump is a lot easier to get dead on over the session than before annealing.
Keep at it

 

[TTE]

I think I covered all the questions. Let me know if I missed any.

Regular blue propane bottle/torch, pencil flame head.
6.5 PRC lapua brass
I did not record how long in flame, I will next time. I did take note of the # setting on the variable motor and repeated that test this morning in a cold garage which may vary the results. Result was 30 seconds in the flame which seems way longer than before. If I had to guess I would say about 20 seconds in the flame before.
I am using "The Ugly Annealer"
Garage was room temp when I annealed.

Dark room red glow timing seems like best idea, then record time in flame, not # on machine.
I just have to do that when it is dark out since my garage has too many windows to try and cover.

I have reloaded all the brass I have but here is a pic of the annealed and loaded brass.

https://imgur.com/a/WC8jD3p

I have a different annealing machine, but 30 seconds seems waaay too long to me.

 

[DiRTY DOG]

30 and 20 seconds are both way too long depending on the flame setting. BTW the red LED speed setting on the Ugly Annealer is not measured in seconds, it's just a reference number so you can repeat the setting. With my Lapua 6.5x47L brass it's on setting 47, but on my 223 brass it's on 67 (faster)

The flame "should" be approx 1" long, with the point about 1/8" off the neck/shoulder junction. (You pick the specifics, just do it the exact same way every time).

It's in the instructions and videos.

 

[TTE]

The flame "should" be approx 1" long

or less - IMO

 

[DiRTY DOG]

When you say "little to no neck grip on the bullet", what does that mean? The bullet falls into the case? The bullet can be easily pushed into the case mouth with finger pressure? You actually REQUIRE crimp?

Or do you mean seating bullets feels like the bullet glides smoothly into the mouth? 'Cause that's how it's supposed to feel after annealing, very smooth and even.

 

[Bill Norris]

I think I covered all the questions. Let me know if I missed any.

Regular blue propane bottle/torch, pencil flame head.
6.5 PRC lapua brass
I did not record how long in flame, I will next time. I did take note of the # setting on the variable motor and repeated that test this morning in a cold garage which may vary the results. Result was 30 seconds in the flame which seems way longer than before. If I had to guess I would say about 20 seconds in the flame before.
I am using "The Ugly Annealer"
Garage was room temp when I annealed.

Dark room red glow timing seems like best idea, then record time in flame, not # on machine.
I just have to do that when it is dark out since my garage has too many windows to try and cover.

I have reloaded all the brass I have but here is a pic of the annealed and loaded brass.

https://imgur.com/a/WC8jD3p

That piece of brass does not show any sign of annealing. There should be some discoloration at the neck and app. 1/4" below the shoulder/neck junction. But if you cleaned it after annealing that would probably be at least partially removed.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I think I covered all the questions. Let me know if I missed any.

Regular blue propane bottle/torch, pencil flame head.
6.5 PRC lapua brass
I did not record how long in flame, I will next time. I did take note of the # setting on the variable motor and repeated that test this morning in a cold garage which may vary the results. Result was 30 seconds in the flame which seems way longer than before. If I had to guess I would say about 20 seconds in the flame before.
I am using "The Ugly Annealer"
Garage was room temp when I annealed.

Dark room red glow timing seems like best idea, then record time in flame, not # on machine.
I just have to do that when it is dark out since my garage has too many windows to try and cover.

I have reloaded all the brass I have but here is a pic of the annealed and loaded brass.

https://imgur.com/a/WC8jD3p

I suspect you wet tumbled your brass after annealing, since there's no discoloring of the brass. Next, show what it looks like after annealing and before cleaing.

20 or 30 seconds is way too long, even if the case wasn't in the hottest part of the flame. You really need to find your timing in a darkened room. I'd expect something between 6 and 10 seconds to see the neck begin to glow, given your torch set up. Ignore the machines settings and go by the clock. Once you find the right amount of time, then you can take note for the setting for future reference.

If the brass sits in a cold garage and you start annealing then when particularly cold, it'll effect the timing as it'll take just a little longer to get the brass to where it would get at room temperature.

If you've got some old brass, practice on them to get a feel for your timing. If you don't have some, get some to practice with.

 

[Webster]

I think I covered all the questions. Let me know if I missed any.

Regular blue propane bottle/torch, pencil flame head.
6.5 PRC lapua brass
I did not record how long in flame, I will next time. I did take note of the # setting on the variable motor and repeated that test this morning in a cold garage which may vary the results. Result was 30 seconds in the flame which seems way longer than before. If I had to guess I would say about 20 seconds in the flame before.
I am using "The Ugly Annealer"
Garage was room temp when I annealed.

Dark room red glow timing seems like best idea, then record time in flame, not # on machine.
I just have to do that when it is dark out since my garage has too many windows to try and cover.

I have reloaded all the brass I have but here is a pic of the annealed and loaded brass.

https://imgur.com/a/WC8jD3p

Like I said before I get red in about 9-10 seconds with a single hand held torch. I would assume you get red in no more than 10 seconds and you say your annealing for 30 seconds. Does this mean from 10-30 seconds it's red. Way to much heat. I'm surprized you are not melting the necks.

 

[SKWERLZ]

I ignore the case but instead look at the deflected flame on brass
It will go from blue to orange and I cease there.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I ignore the case but instead look at the deflected flame on brass
It will go from blue to orange and I cease there.

That's what I did when I first started flame annealing and always had a question about that due to differences in that orange flame from various chemical residues left behind from cleaning process and different powders. The "glow method" seemed more reliable to me. And when I went to the "glow method" I did seem to get better sizing results, which makes sense to me now that I can see some differences in hardness as a result of some testing I did.

 

[Webster]

I ignore the case but instead look at the deflected flame on brass
It will go from blue to orange and I cease there.

The flame color does not relate to annealing. If the neck isn't turning red you are not annealing.

 

[243winxb]

Once the cases were loaded I found there was little to no neck grip on the bullet. I had to resort to crimping to achieve something that would stay together.

A Bushing die may be needed to control neck tension/bullet hold now?

 

[SD guy]

7 to 8 seconds in the flame for 6mm ARC as a comparison for me. Variability will be influenced by flame size & focus & ambient temperature. Very dimly lit room may be essential in determining time required to achieve a consistent dull red glow in a dark room. Lighting matters.

links below may be enlightening.