I think I over annealed some brass

[muleman69]

It takes a lot to get brass that soft. How did you anneal it? How long?

I used an annealezz ,ran them about 6 seconds at shoulder junction. Tempilaq melted about 3/8" down shoulder. Looked a lot like my Laupua brass

 

[Lou Murdica]

Have you ever sent your brass out new and after you annealed I have and its was all over the place. This is the only way you know what the outcome is.
I have tested for years trying to save 6 ppc brass and making it last longer. I could not ever do it, tell the AMP machine. No other unit ever gave me the consistency in pressure testing and accuracy tell AMP. Also I have found sizing after annealing was the most consistent. Shooting a 6PPC at a match you will load your bass 30 times in a weekend with out annealing and have great success. Because it starts to change consistently even. After using the AMP in tunnel I started using one at the range. It has proved it works at both. I did find that if i was not going to anneal every time starting with the annealing after the first firing It was better to not do it at all. I have applied this to my F-class shooing also.

 

[Texas10]

Brass does not respond to a cold quench. It is hardened only by working it, as LVLAaron states.

For some casual reading on the subject: http://www.massreloading.com/annealing.html

Or, if you're having trouble falling asleep: https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=192525

 

[dcali]

Heating and cooling is part of the hardning process because brass is not loke steel.

You are mistaken. The only thing that can happen when you heat brass is that it could get softer.

 

[Falfan2017]

I used an annealezz ,ran them about 6 seconds at shoulder junction. Tempilaq melted about 3/8" down shoulder. Looked a lot like my Laupua brass

Something else is at play here your brass shouldn't do that after 6 seconds. I would take a look at your neck tension. Also I would size after annealing.

 

[bsekf]

I thought the danger of over annealing was getting the web area up to 750F and softening it. I believe there is more to this story. My case failures in a press can be traced back to operator error.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Have you ever sent your brass out new and after you annealed I have and its was all over the place. This is the only way you know what the outcome is.
I have tested for years trying to save 6 ppc brass and making it last longer. I could not ever do it, tell the AMP machine. No other unit ever gave me the consistency in pressure testing and accuracy tell AMP. Also I have found sizing after annealing was the most consistent. Shooting a 6PPC at a match you will load your bass 30 times in a weekend with out annealing and have great success. Because it starts to change consistently even. After using the AMP in tunnel I started using one at the range. It has proved it works at both. I did find that if i was not going to anneal every time starting with the annealing after the first firing It was better to not do it at all. I have applied this to my F-class shooing also.

Good info. Thanks for sharing. I will get a case every once in a while that gives me fits and doesn't want to cooperate even after annealing 2 or 3 times in a row to 750 deg. Had one case just this morning that I annealed, sized, measured, annealed and sized again and the neck still wouldn't size properly. I usually just turn those cases into sighter/foulers. Perhaps the AMP would be able to do something to the brass that propane cannot to make it work.

I have also found, as you did, that you need to start annealing cases right away and stay on it after every firing. I will even anneal brand new brass to ensure consistency right out of the gate. Other cases that I have started to anneal after 3 or 4 firings seem to be much more difficult to get under control. I can tame many of those with multiple annealings in a row, but there's always a few cases that might not take. I get much better consistency annealing them brand new and then after every firing.

Tight neck chambers with a FL die set properly can get away without annealing. For my no turn chambers like I have in varmint and hunting rifles, annealing is a must to prolong life as the thicker brass is worked a lot more from firing to to sizing.

 

[Webster]

I used an annealezz ,ran them about 6 seconds at shoulder junction. Tempilaq melted about 3/8" down shoulder. Looked a lot like my Laupua brass

Are you sure they were over way annealed? I would not think 6 sec. would cause severe over anneal. Your tempilaq would indicate you are OK? Squeeze the neck of an annealed case with pliers. Compare to a new or unannealed case. If the neck is really soft you can squeeze the neck oval about 10-20 thou with very little force. Are you getting lube on the case necks. If the neck seized up in the die it has to push the shoulder back.

 

[dcali]

I have a hunch that you did not over-anneal, but rather you had an issue with sizing the brass. Verify everything is set up right and htat the brass is consistently sized (before sizing) before you assume it's the annealing.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've annealed brass with a torch-based system until the necks and upper shoulders were cherry red in a fully lit room just as a test to see what would happen. I had no subsequent issues whatsoever with the shoulders collapsing when seating bullets at ~.002" neck tension (interference fit). I suspect you may have had a combination of things that might include excessively resized necks (i.e. excessively high neck tension), insufficient chamfer, and/or possibly the case shoulder angle. Based on your listed annealing conditions, it does not sound as though gross over-annealing was the bulk of your problem, or at the very least, it was more likely a minor contributor.

 

[muleman69]

Something else is at play here your brass shouldn't do that after 6 seconds. I would take a look at your neck tension. Also I would size after annealing.

This is new brass Nosler. I did not size the new brass after I annealed,didnt think I had to. How much neck tension would it take to crush the neck down into the shoulder? I'm really looking for help here as I don't no what happened. If I screwed up I need to no

 

[muleman69]

I've annealed brass with a torch-based system until the necks and upper shoulders were cherry red in a fully lit room just as a test to see what would happen. I had no subsequent issues whatsoever with the shoulders collapsing when seating bullets at ~.002" neck tension (interference fit). I suspect you may have had a combination of things that might include excessively resized necks (i.e. excessively high neck tension), insufficient chamfer, and/or possibly the case shoulder angle. Based on your listed annealing conditions, it does not sound as though gross over-annealing was the bulk of your problem, or at the very least, it was more likely a minor contributor.

This is new brass annealed at approximately 6 seconds, loaded with 59.5 grains of 4831 and set bullet to seat .050 of lands then crushed neck down into shoulder? What have I done wrong?.280 Ackley

 

[muleman69]

I have a hunch that you did not over-anneal, but rather you had an issue with sizing the brass. Verify everything is set up right and htat the brass is consistently sized (before sizing) before you assume it's the annealing.

New brass

 

[jepp2]

Tempilaq melted about 3/8" down shoulder.

Did you use Tempilaq on the outside of the case? The flame impinging on the Tempilaq will give you a false reading. More of a reading of flame temperature than brass temperature.

 

[muleman69]

Did you use Tempilaq on the outside of the case? The flame impinging on the Tempilaq will give you a false reading. More of a reading of flame temperature than brass temperature.

I did ,when it melted I quit. How do I go about using it?

 

[jepp2]

How do I go about using it?

I put a narrow stripe down the inside of the case neck. Since it is kind of difficult to see, run the brass for a lesser time and let it cool. Check to see if the Tempilaq melted and basically turned clear. If it didn't, add a second. Repeat until you just melt the narrow stripe. I have the tip of the flame at the slope of the shoulder. With the lights dim, you can see the flame better as it washes up the case neck and down the body.

I use same caliber older scrap cases to get my time set, but you can use your normal cases with my approach.

 

[Falfan2017]

This is new brass Nosler. I did not size the new brass after I annealed,didnt think I had to. How much neck tension would it take to crush the neck down into the shoulder? I'm really looking for help here as I don't no what happened. If I screwed up I need to no

You don't really need to anneal new brass they anneal it at the factory. I size after annealing with the expander ball removed from the die and then use an expander mandrel then proceed to prime charge and seat.

 

[muleman69]

I put a narrow stripe down the inside of the case neck. Since it is kind of difficult to see, run the brass for a lesser time and let it cool. Check to see if the Tempilaq melted and basically turned clear. If it didn't, add a second. Repeat until you just melt the narrow stripe. I have the tip of the flame at the slope of the shoulder. With the lights dim, you can see the flame better as it washes up the case neck and down the body.

I use same caliber older scrap cases to get my time set, but you can use your normal cases with my approach.

Thank you, seems like mine turns black?

 

[muleman69]

You don't really need to anneal new brass they anneal it at the factory. I size after annealing with the expander ball removed from the die and then use an expander mandrel then proceed to prime charge and seat.

Thats what I will try ,Thanks

 

[jepp2]

seems like mine turns black?

That is because the flame contact is seriously overheating it. Per Tempilaq "This non-flammable, quick-drying fluid dries to a dull matte finish then liquefies when the rated temperature is reached. When rated temperature is reached, film will liquefy, dull opaque appearance changes to bright and clear. For use on polished metal, glass, plastics or rubber."