Over Annealed?

[Rocketvapor]

With a reasonable "Room" temperature, how much time difference to heat the neck from 60F or 75F or 90F to at least 750F? That's an increase of 690F - 675F- 660F. About a range of +/- 2.2%.

EDIT: Looks like Dull Red is 650-700C, not F.
For 7 seconds in the flame would that be about +/- 0.154 seconds?
A human might think 60F is cool and 90F is warm, metals probably don't.
60F = 288.71K
75F = 297.04K
90F = 305.37K
750F = 672.04K
1000F= 810.93K


K = (5/9 × (F - 32)) + 273.15

F to C to K and grains to grams,

 

[SKWERLZ]

The flame color does not relate to annealing. If the neck isn't turning red you are not annealing.

It absolutely does relate to annealing as it indicates a temperature where elements in the brass start to burn and that’s also the annealing temperature.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Orange can come from contaminates on the surface.
Not just contaminates on the neck but
Internal brass temp of the shoulder/body that gets over 450F could burn off Orange.

Where the flame hits also effects where the brass gets the hottest.
A point flame just touching the brass and the heat flows outward might make the brass heat at a different rate than a wrap around flame.

 

[SKWERLZ]

That's what I did when I first started flame annealing and always had a question about that due to differences in that orange flame from various chemical residues left behind from cleaning process and different powders. The "glow method" seemed more reliable to me. And when I went to the "glow method" I did seem to get better sizing results, which makes sense to me now that I can see some differences in hardness as a result of some testing I did.

Faint red starts at 700
Orange glow starts at 950
I’ve noticed flame color change (with fairly clean brass coinciding with the faint red phase of temperature.
Yes, odd crap on or in the case will induce a

 

[Rocketvapor]

Faint red starts at 700
Orange glow starts at 950
I’ve noticed flame color change (with fairly clean brass coinciding with the faint red phase of temperature.
Yes, odd crap on or in the case will induce a

The orange flame at the faint red phase (about 650C to 700C) probably ain't burning out metal.
Contamination crap burns off, the flame goes back to blue, and the NEXT orange flame might be TOO HOT.

For those concerned about annealing in a garage during a cold winter night,
What is the temperature of the NEXT case before it gets hit with flame?
How many cases do you load in the tray to preheat?

 

[Webster]

Faint red starts at 700
Orange glow starts at 950
I’ve noticed flame color change (with fairly clean brass coinciding with the faint red phase of temperature.
Yes, odd crap on or in the case will induce a

700C not F.

All your numbers are wrong. Red is about 1050F. I use to work with a PHD scientist that was a consultant to the copper industry 1050F was his opinion. The flame color change is related to the electrons in an element gaining energy then losing energy and releasing the lost energy as light. Doesn't indicate the brass temp. The flame color change is not an indication of the brass being damaged or zinc burning off. You will get the flame color change with perfectly clean brass. Junk on the surface may affect the exact color.

There are more complicated explanations on internet.
How the Flame Test Works
The basic premise is that heat from a flame gives atoms enough energy that their electrons become excited. Dropping to a more stable energy state involves the release of photons. These photons have a frequency (light color) that is a characteristic of the element.

Quantum theory holds that electrons around a nucleus are located in discrete energy levels. When energy is supplied to an atom through light or heating a substance, the electrons absorb part of the energy and jump from a low-energy or ground state to a higher energy level or excited state. Consider a single electron. After absorbing energy, it moves faster and farther from the nucleus. The electron is in an excited state. However, the excited state is not stable, and thus the electron ultimately returns to its original, lower-energy ground state.
The electron falls back to its lower-energy or ground state, once previously absorbed energy is released. The energy emitted is a photon of light of specific wavelength or color. A flame test exposes electrons to heat, resulting in signature colors of flame , enabling identification of elements.

Because different atoms have unique electron orbital arrangements, they emit unique and identifiable spectral line patterns. The human eye sees the combined result of the electron energy changes as one color. You may be asking yourself how can a color such as red be limited to one element?

At what temperature does brass change color? interner source not given.
The brass would begin to glow a dull red at round about 700 deg C. And as the temperature rose the colour would become more like cherry red. Depending on the type of brass the t,eprature could not go much higher than 900 deg before it melted. Viewed in virtual darkness the first signs of red appear at around 600 deg C.Aug 13, 2022

 

[Rocketvapor]

"The brass would begin to glow a dull red at round about 700 deg C"
700C = 1292F = 973.15K
I stand corrected on Deg F vs C.
I guess 750F (399C) Tempilak is worthless.


Looks like color is the best indicator. At least a Red glow, but before Orange.

Annealing Temperatures For Reloading Brass Cartridge Cases

G. Chambers, Ballistic Recreations Introduction Although the metallurgy of brass has been extensively studied and understanding is quite advanced at the academic and industrial levels, technical kn…

ballisticrecreations.ca

Here is a pic from that article:

How many YEARS has 750F been the recommended temperature?
Maybe not using C or F when posting has caused a monstrous misunderstanding.
So how long before this makes it to the main stream?

 

[EricE555]

When you say "little to no neck grip on the bullet", what does that mean? The bullet falls into the case? The bullet can be easily pushed into the case mouth with finger pressure? You actually REQUIRE crimp?

Or do you mean seating bullets feels like the bullet glides smoothly into the mouth? 'Cause that's how it's supposed to feel after annealing, very smooth and even.

I actually required a crimp. These are hunting rounds to they may go in and out of the chamber many times before being fired. I could push the bullet further in by hand without the crimp.

 

[EricE555]

Like I said before I get red in about 9-10 seconds with a single hand held torch. I would assume you get red in no more than 10 seconds and you say your annealing for 30 seconds. Does this mean from 10-30 seconds it's red. Way to much heat. I'm surprized you are not melting the necks.

The total time in flame was 20-30 secs, but I see everyone telling me I need to be around 10 seconds. I'll use that as a rule of thumb from now on.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I THINK using enough flame to get the neck to a red glow in about 7 to 10 seconds, then take it out of the flame within a couple seconds to prevent excessive heat down the body.

 

[Webster]

"The brass would begin to glow a dull red at round about 700 deg C"
700C = 1292F = 973.15K
I stand corrected on Deg F vs C.
I guess 750F (399C) Tempilak is worthless.


Looks like color is the best indicator. At least a Red glow, but before Orange.

Annealing Temperatures For Reloading Brass Cartridge Cases

G. Chambers, Ballistic Recreations Introduction Although the metallurgy of brass has been extensively studied and understanding is quite advanced at the academic and industrial levels, technical kn…

ballisticrecreations.ca

Here is a pic from that article:
View attachment 1610452
How many YEARS has 750F been the recommended temperature?
Maybe not using C or F when posting has caused a monstrous misunderstanding.
So how long before this makes it to the main stream?

Nice chart. The first salt bath data I have seen. Salt baths are dangerous. I understand the top two lines. Why are the 2 bottom lines so low and rising?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Bottom two lines use the right side scale, Feature (grain) size.

Based on internet forums I assumed 750F was the desired temperature.
I dry run scrap brass to get a pretty good red glow in a dark room every time I anneal.
Time is ABOUT 7 seconds to Red. I don't measure temperature.
Very slight difference between 22 Nosler/Dogtown brass and 22 Nosler headstamp brass.
The Dogtown brass, for my AR is about 0.253" loaded (neck about 0.014" to 0.0145" thick).
The Nosler brass, for the wife's Savage bolt gun is a little thicker @ 0.254" loaded(neck about 0.015" thick).

 

[Mike TackleBerry]

700C not F.

All your numbers are wrong. Red is about 1050F. I use to work with a PHD scientist that was a consultant to the copper industry 1050F was his opinion. The flame color change is related to the electrons in an element gaining energy then losing energy and releasing the lost energy as light. Doesn't indicate the brass temp. The flame color change is not an indication of the brass being damaged or zinc burning off. You will get the flame color change with perfectly clean brass. Junk on the surface may affect the exact color.

There are more complicated explanations on internet.
How the Flame Test Works
The basic premise is that heat from a flame gives atoms enough energy that their electrons become excited. Dropping to a more stable energy state involves the release of photons. These photons have a frequency (light color) that is a characteristic of the element.

Quantum theory holds that electrons around a nucleus are located in discrete energy levels. When energy is supplied to an atom through light or heating a substance, the electrons absorb part of the energy and jump from a low-energy or ground state to a higher energy level or excited state. Consider a single electron. After absorbing energy, it moves faster and farther from the nucleus. The electron is in an excited state. However, the excited state is not stable, and thus the electron ultimately returns to its original, lower-energy ground state.
The electron falls back to its lower-energy or ground state, once previously absorbed energy is released. The energy emitted is a photon of light of specific wavelength or color. A flame test exposes electrons to heat, resulting in signature colors of flame , enabling identification of elements.

Because different atoms have unique electron orbital arrangements, they emit unique and identifiable spectral line patterns. The human eye sees the combined result of the electron energy changes as one color. You may be asking yourself how can a color such as red be limited to one element?

At what temperature does brass change color? interner source not given.
The brass would begin to glow a dull red at round about 700 deg C. And as the temperature rose the colour would become more like cherry red. Depending on the type of brass the t,eprature could not go much higher than 900 deg before it melted. Viewed in virtual darkness the first signs of red appear at around 600 deg C.Aug 13, 2022

Did you plagiarize the entire post??? https://knowledge.carolina.com/disc...sts-and-spectroscopy-get-excited-about-color/

 

[DiRTY DOG]

The instruction manual says to watch the instruction videos at the QR codes provided. In the first 2 minutes of the "Operating Tips" video it shows a demonstration of 6.5 Cr brass being annealed for exactly 7 seconds and it describes the dull red color change to look for. I don't know you came up with 30 or 40 seconds. It sounds like you need to stop and go back and follow the instructions?

 

[Litespeed]

While we all know the obvious answer, I'm going to ask anyways. Did you resize after annealing? What was the full process you used start to finish? There's got to be something we are missing.

 

[TTE]

I got an Annealer and annealed my brass for the first time since starting reloading 25-30 years ago.

If you left the brass in the flame past 15 seconds (and that is pushing it for me), personally I would have some concerns about shooting it.
You said the temp stick you had did not work, which means you have no way to tell if the web of the case was softened also.

For me, I would call it an expensive lesson, pull the bullets, salvage what you can (and is safe to do) and mark all the brass as test brass for practice and setting up your annealing time for the next time you anneal.

I use scrap brass of the same manufacturer of the brass I am annealing to get close to the time I need to have the brass in the flame. Then fine tune the time from there, as each annealing session will be different.

Flame annealing is not a set it and forget it deal, you have to start from scratch and set it up (torch flame and time in the flame) from the beginning each time you anneal.

That is my $0.73 worth
(used to be $0.02 worth - inflation impact of Bidenomics)

 

[EricE555]

I am just posting back to say that I found a solution without crimping the bullet to get the bullets to "stick". The loaded brass I have was annealed after resizing and I needed to crimp the bullets to get them to stay in place. I have another lot that was annealed before resizing and had not been loaded yet. I seated a bullet in the case that was ready for loading and could easily pull the bullet out with my fingers. In fact, I found I could push the bullet in or pull it out with my fingers. So I FL resized it and seated the bullet and found it was seated tight enough that I needed decent force on the bullet puller to remove the bullet. I found that FL resizing provides 5 Thou of "neck tension" (difference between inside case neck no bullet and bullet diameter).

 

[DShortt]

We can dispute numbers and post charts for weeks. The brass cares not.
I do mine individually, by hand and have learned over time what looks right on the brass during the heat application.
What I've learned is, there is no specific set time.
This is what works for me. If your method works for you, that's perfect.
If you are experiencing problems, then change your methods.
Ignorance is doing something once and having a failure due to inexperience.
Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to change.

 

[6BRA]

Orange plasma blast...very evident at tip of flame. Thats when they got pulled out by timer when I was flame annealing. I have accidentally annealed 6.5x47 for over 10 seconds on a dual torch setup. Glowing red below shoulder line. I shot it and had neck tension. No issues.

 

[Webster]

I got an Annealer and annealed my brass for the first time since starting reloading 25-30 years ago. I tried to be careful to achieve a glow but not bright red but this batch was done in the daylight and I couldn't control it very well. Once the cases were loaded I found there was little to no neck grip on the bullet. I had to resort to crimping to achieve something that would stay together.

Did I over do it? If so, do I just back off to half that time? How should I do it in the future in order to still have proper neck tension. I have the stick form of tempilstick 650 but it wouldn't mark the brass so it was of no use. Do I have to resort to a neck bushing die? I will if I have to but I didn't want to complicate my life this much.

Any advice people have will be considered (now that I have spent $300 on an annealer and want to make use of it).

I doubt you over annealed. Maybe you need a bushing die to control neck diameter. Why would you buy a crimping die for a bolt action rifle? Are you saying you crimped a bullet without a crimping Cannelure? Do you have a digital caliper to measure neck diameter before and after seating a bullet. A cheap harbor Freight is good enough for this.

Anneal until you see the neck red in a dark room 1-2 seconds red and stop. It's that simple. Been doing it for years without a problem.