Long range load development at 100 yards.

[Pigdog]

tag

 

[Bart B.]

Here's the best training aid I can find about few-shot group's representing accuracy:

http://azbrs.com/downloads/results/2016-Cactus_Classic-Light_Varmint_100yd.pdf

Compare the winner's first 5-shot group (Match 1) to the other four match's 5-shot groups. Is the first group, Match 1, always the smallest for all competitors?

Next, go to this link, select another match for light varmint class rifles:

http://azbrs.com/matches/2016-lv-hv-cactus-classic/

.. then Look at other events he shot in. Compare all of his 5-shot groups shot with his light varmint benchrest rig.

What's the size in MOA his light varmint smallest group was shot? Next, the largest one? How much bigger was his largest group than his smallest one. 6X bigger is common.

How credible is one 5-shot group? Single 3-shot groups are most common for accessing rifle accuracy.

It's my opinion that 50 people given the same rifle and component lots, then asked to shoot one 3 or 5 group with each recipie details (charge weight, OAL) they choose, there will be 50 best recipes, all different, as most accurate.

I use the largest group fired as the accuracy (precision, if you prefer) the system has. System = rifle + ammo + human. That includes all shots fired. I cannot discern if the smallest group happened when all variables were at zero in their spread, or all those variables in different sizes and directions cancelled each other out.

 

[Ian Sirrell]

Came late to this thread. Have read from page one till the end. Thank you Erik for taking the time to share your knowledge with others. I have learned a lot over the last week of reading this thread from start to finish. I hope to put that new knowledge into effect next week. Hopefully collect my 2000 BR4 primers tomorrow, then I will do 100y test loads and see how it works against my load that I am currently using. Reducing vertical from what I have at present, there is room for improvement.

Many thanks.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

Hello Erik, much obliged if you can find the time to read and advise on my 100 yd test session. Thanks and best regards, Eddie

 

[Hollywood]

Hello Erik, much obliged if you can find the time to read and advise on my 100 yd test session. Thanks and best regards, Eddie

View attachment 1019313

I would eplore the 55.5 gr load.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

With 185 rounds down the tube es is coming down steadily. It started at 38 to 48 fps with new Lapua brass. This last time out I used a new A&D FX120i scale to measure powder. I've never gotten es like the 55 grain group. 2 shots at 2869 and 1 at 2870!

 

[Erik Cortina]

Hello Erik, much obliged if you can find the time to read and advise on my 100 yd test session. Thanks and best regards, Eddie

View attachment 1019313

I would go with 55.2 but I wish I knew what 54.5 is doing. Maybe 55.0 is the best but without knowing what 54.5 is doing it's hard to say.

Do a test from 54.5 to 55.5 in .1 increments. 3 shot groups should be plenty. This will allow you to pin point the node.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Greetings from New Zealand. I only found this site a month or so ago and that was via this post. Since then I've learnt much and now sadly realise how little I know about precision reloading. I've searched many sites, forums, you tube, etc to get a better understanding of this hobby yet I still don't fully understand the art of precision case prep. I wish someone would start a step by step thread on the subject...... Just saying....

I've seen Erik mention before that full length resizing is a must and I was one of the many, I guess, who was under the belief that neck sizing was the way to go. I'm not fortunate enough to have a custom rifle or custom dies so my concern is that FL resizing will work the brass too much and/or bump the shoulder back more than 0.002" if the case is run into the die far enough to resize it completey. And from what I've seen it will also reduce the overall case size too much.

I know this thread is all about load development but since FL resizing is strongly recommended by Erik I'd like to get to grips with this so my load development actually works. The last two 223 loads I did for different rifles didn't clearly show any nodes and both had a large extreme spreads. I'm putting this down to poor case prep cause by my ignorance.

So, does FL resizing mean just that or is it resizing the full case slightly with custom dies?

This is from Shootdots recommendations for precision preparation of brass.
I have followed his methods with great success in reduction of runout and improved accuracy. Hope this helps.

"
Here is what you do to ANY brass, Lapua or not, to make them shoot properly. If you are not improving the cartridge (i.e. making an Ackley) or completely forming it, like making a BRX or Dasher, you can make virgin brass fire as accurately as fireformed brass.

1.) Expand the necks. If it's a .22 cal or whatever, get a .22 expander mandrel and expand the necks. This will push most, if not all, of the imperfections in the neck to the outside. TRICK: when expanding the case necks, run the case up in the mandrel body die and then back off, spin the case about 1/3rd turn, run back up in the die. Do this 3 or 4 times (it takes an extra 5 seconds) and you will feel the case gong up in the die very smoothly>>>then you know the imperfections have been pushed to the outside.

2.) If it is a "no turn neck", at least skim-turn your necks to about 90 percent "clean-up". This will turn off the imperfections you just pushed to the outside.

3.) Anneal the necks>>>even on virgin brass

4.) Chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouths.

5.) Heat has a way of moving metal. So, run the brass back thru the mandrel to straighten up the necks>> using the spin method once again...

6.) Using a "used / carboned up" neck brush, vigorously brush out the necks.

7.) Prime the case

8.) Using a Q-Tip, swab out the inside of the case neck with Imperial DRY neck lube.

9.) Charge your case with powder,

10.) Seat your bullet.


If you do this to virgin brass, you will not see a difference between the virgin and fireformed brass. DON'T do this with virgin Lapua (or any brass) brass and you are kidding yourself!


Last edited: Mar 20, 2017"

Let me give you my method for new Lapua brass.

If it's a no turn.
1. Prime
2. Drop safe reduced charge (will harden brass base and primer pockets will last longer)
3. Load bullet
4. Shoot

Second firing.
1. Anneal
2. F/L size (if fired brass still chambers, back die out to only size neck)
3. Clean with STM
4. Trim and chamfer (Giraud trimmer)
5. Weight sort.
6. Prime, drop powder, seat bullet, shoot.


If it's a tight neck chamber.
1. Run expander mandrel to expand neck.
2. Neck turn.
3. Prime
4. Drop safe reduced charge (will harden brass base and primer pockets will last longer)
5. Seat bullet
6. Shoot

Second firing:
Same as above.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

My neck is .314. I prepped new Lapua just as described for tight neck chamber. I turned to allow for .004 total bullet release. .002 neck tension. The above test was jam - .020. This still left me .005 into the lands.
I will load 54.5 to 55.5 in .1 increments and spin the wheel!
Thanks all. Your feedback is immensely appreciated.

 

[savageshooter86]

Hello Erik, much obliged if you can find the time to read and advise on my 100 yd test session. Thanks and best regards, Eddie

View attachment 1019313

Is 4831SC faster velocity than H4350? That seems fast for straight 284

 

[savageshooter86]

I would load middle of 56and 56.5 and do seating test. Then after get that dialed in go back and tune charge like Erick said in smaller increments to really narrow down the window

 

[Eddie Vializ]

She is shooting on the fast side. 30" barrel. Some ejector marks at 57 but still easy bolt opening. I have shot some 1/4" groups at 100 and 200 yds with 56.5 but the es was 38fps and at 1000 yds vertical was off the charts. Only now is es down to 16. In a perfect world velocity, accuracy and low es would coincide, but I'd rather slow it down a hair and get good accuracy and low es. That will give me a chance to be competitive.

 

[dollarsign22]

Hi Erik
I've been reading and learning a lot from this thread. This is from my 308, FTR rig, 30.5 " barrel, 10 twist and 190 gr bullets. I shot this at 100 yards from a concrete bench. This is the slow node according to quickload. I did the powder test down to .2 gr increments and picked the charge that should work. This is my seating depth test. Jam is 2.260 so I started at 2.250 and worked out to 2.214 in .003 incremnnts. 2.229 and 2.226 jump out to me but I'd like your input. I'm not looking for the fastest load just the most accurate. Please tell me what you think I should do. I am totally amazed at how much difference such small changes in seating depth makes.
Thanks in advance.
Ken

 

[dollarsign22]

I ended up at the range 40 miles away and forgot my targets so I had to improvise. Sorry. My scope has a 1/8 moa target dot and aim point was always the center of the cross
Ken

 

[seymour fish]

Hi Erik
I've been reading and learning a lot from this thread. This is from my 308, FTR rig, 30.5 " barrel, 10 twist and 190 gr bullets. I shot this at 100 yards from a concrete bench. This is the slow node according to quickload. I did the powder test down to .2 gr increments and picked the charge that should work. This is my seating depth test. Jam is 2.260 so I started at 2.250 and worked out to 2.214 in .003 incremnnts. 2.229 and 2.226 jump out to me but I'd like your input. I'm not looking for the fastest load just the most accurate. Please tell me what you think I should do. I am totally amazed at how much difference such small changes in seating depth makes.
Thanks in advance.
Ken
View attachment 1019629

229-226 ! Split the difference

 

[Ned Ludd]

Just want to see if one more post will kick the thread to 100 pgs .

Nope...not quite there yet.

 

[Eddie Vializ]

Erik, what a long week! Couldn't wait to get this done but here it is. I think you're gonna need a cup of coffee or maybe a Jack and Coke! I'm including the initial target as a memory refresher.


Here is where you said you'd love to see what 54.5 would do. So here's 54.5 to 55.5 in 1 gr increments. Whatever the verdict is I load a seating test and take it to the match next weekend. Drum roll please......

 

[savageshooter86]

Erik, what a long week! Couldn't wait to get this done but here it is. I think you're gonna need a cup of coffee or maybe a Jack and Coke! I'm including the initial target as a memory refresher.

View attachment 1019930
Here is where you said you'd love to see what 54.5 would do. So here's 54.5 to 55.5 in 1 gr increments. Whatever the verdict is I load a seating test and take it to the match next weekend. Drum roll please......

View attachment 1019932

Did you shoot with flags or was wind switching? Several good groups with same vertical poi but different horizontal poi. Looks like wind was changing

 

[Eddie Vializ]

No flags but not very very windy either. Not enough to concern me. I'm at the bench ready to load for seating test. Tomorrow is my last opportunity at the range before a 1000 yd match next weekend. My gut tells me 55 from the first target and 54.9 from the second gave the lowest es. You concur?

 

[Eddie Vializ]

or 55.2 with es of 5 and what looks like the middle of a node.