Interesting mock trial study on use of an AR15 for home defense

[6MMsteve]

I say keep pink limestone rocks strategically placed in the house,along with a pink young hickory tree trunk partially seasoned

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I say keep pink limestone rocks strategically placed in the house,along with a pink young hickory tree trunk partially seasoned

I must be out of the loop on this. What?

 

[Forum Boss]

Based on the sample jurors’ clear prejudice against military- or tactical-style rifles with external magazines, I think a pump shotgun makes sense, or a Marlin lever-action rifle like this:

 

[1911-45]

If you are justified to use lethal force with a shotgun you are justified use lethal force with a rifle.

Oklahoma home invasion shooting: No charges against man who killed 3 intruders

An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

OKLAHOMA CITY – An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

Authorities say Zachary Peters was home alone when he shot Maxwell Cook, Jacob Redfern and Jakob Woodruff with an AR-15 rifle on March 27 at his home just outside the Tulsa suburb of Broken Arrow.

 

[David Milisock]

A simple test for bullet penetration is to use some scrap drywall and 2x4's and maybe a piece of osb. The idea being to simulate an exterior wall of a typical house but build it a few walls thick with drywall, stud, drywall stud, etc, and the osb on the outside. I've done this and there's a huge difference inhow far some bullets will pentrate vs others. It's important to shoot it at close range. 21ft is the fbi qualifying distance because it's the average distance that a firearm is used in a confrontation, per their reports. A 223 with a frangible bullet, like a 55 v-max will surprise you. Not much penetration. I wouldn't want to be standing on the other side, mind you..but try this test for yourself sometime.

Lucky for me Paul Harrel and Garand Thumb YouTube sites did exactly that and it was really telling. Most stuff people use for home defense will penetrate at least 2 interior walls of a modern home spaced apart the distance of an average room. For decades we kept a 642 in 38 and a Makarov in the house. Didn't want to

 

[David Milisock]

If you are justified to use lethal force with a shotgun you are justified use lethal force with a rifle.

Oklahoma home invasion shooting: No charges against man who killed 3 intruders

An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

OKLAHOMA CITY – An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

Authorities say Zachary Peters was home alone when he shot Maxwell Cook, Jacob Redfern and Jakob Woodruff with an AR-15 rifle on March 27 at his home just outside the Tulsa suburb of Broken Arrow.

It depends on where you are, we need to spread the word that the AR is the average rifle today.

 

[6Creed73]

If you are justified to use lethal force with a shotgun you are justified use lethal force with a rifle.

Oklahoma home invasion shooting: No charges against man who killed 3 intruders

An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

www.foxnews.com

OKLAHOMA CITY – An Oklahoma prosecutor said Monday no charges will be filed against a 23-year-old man who fatally shot three teenage intruders in his home, but that the woman who drove them there is being charged with first-degree murder.

Authorities say Zachary Peters was home alone when he shot Maxwell Cook, Jacob Redfern and Jakob Woodruff with an AR-15 rifle on March 27 at his home just outside the Tulsa suburb of Broken Arrow.

Exactly. Here is my take...if you are concerned about being brought up on charges for defending yourself or your family with a legally owned gun, then you should move to a better state.

The study and the mock trial only show that people are uneducated about firearms and a good attorney will be able to overcome that. In my case, where I have a 300BLK AR for home defense...a good attorney will be able to show that I chose a weapon with low velocity as to not put anyone else in harms way, he will be able to show that I chose a bullet that has a less likely hood of over penetration, and he'll be able to show that I use a suppressor because I don't want to damage anyone's ears. Lastly, he'll be able to show that a rifle with 3 points of contact is more accurate than a pistol and therefore has less risk of missing and going through a window or something. In other words, he should be able to show that I was mindful of the safety of others when I chose that weapon for self-defense.

With all of that said, I live in a state where charges being brought in the first place would be highly unlikely. If this is something that people are overly concerned about, that may be a sign that a move to another state is in order.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Exactly. Here is my take...if you are concerned about being brought up on charges for defending yourself or your family with a legally owned gun, then you should move to a better state.

The study and the mock trial only show that people are uneducated about firearms and a good attorney will be able to overcome that. In my case, where I have a 300BLK AR for home defense...a good attorney will be able to show that I chose a weapon with low velocity as to not put anyone else in harms way, he will be able to show that I chose a bullet that has a less likely hood of over penetration, and he'll be able to show that I use a suppressor because I don't want to damage anyone's ears. Lastly, he'll be able to show that a rifle with 3 points of contact is more accurate than a pistol and therefore has less risk of missing and going through a window or something. In other words, he should be able to show that I was mindful of the safety of others when I chose that weapon for self-defense.

With all of that said, I live in a state where charges being brought in the first place would be highly unlikely. If this is something that people are overly concerned about, that may be a sign that a move to another state is in order.

When I tested for myself, velocity, close range and a very frangible bullet from a 223...I assumed, played heavily into the lack of penetration in my test.

What you say might be true too but it's so easy and basically free, to test it for yourself, I think it's worthwhile. A heavy subsonic bullet, to me, is just the opposite of what I saw from my own test. I liken it to a 45acp, shooting a heavy but also subsonic bullet. I can tell you that that round had far far more penetration than the 55 vmax 223 round did...in my own testing. Not saying either of us is right or wrong but that's why I suggest testing it yourself.

 

[6Creed73]

When I tested for myself, velocity, close range and a very frangible bullet from a 223...I assumed, played heavily into the lack of penetration in my test.

What you say might be true too but it's so easy and basically free, to test it for yourself, I think it's worthwhile. A heavy subsonic bullet, to me, is just the opposite of what I saw from my own test. I liken it to a 45acp, shooting a heavy but also subsonic bullet. I can tell you that that round had far far more penetration than the 55 vmax 223 round did...in my own testing. Not saying either of us is right or wrong but that's why I suggest testing it yourself.

I have tested it...which is why I said I chose a bullet that is not likely to over penetrate. The bullet I use is a Sub-x hollow point. I shot several through a sheet of drywall, insulation, and 1/4" plywood. It made it through, but the bullet was in pieces. On top of that, my house is brick exterior, I'm not worried about penetration through my exterior walls at all. A window is a different story, but that's true for most bullets.

But I never said I disagree with you...in fact, I agree 100% that a vmax bullet in 5.56 is a great choice. Which is why I mentioned in a precious comment that a 5.56 with the right ammo is perfectly fine. I think we are saying the same thing
.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have tested it...which is why I said I chose a bullet that is not likely to over penetrate. The bullet I use is a Sub-x hollow point. I shot several through a sheet of drywall, insulation, and 1/4" plywood. It made it through, but the bullet was in pieces. On top of that, my house is brick exterior, I'm not worried about penetration through my exterior walls at all. A window is a different story, but that's true for most bullets.

But I never said I disagree with you...in fact, I agree 100% that a vmax bullet in 5.56 is a great choice. Which is why I mentioned in a precious comment that a 5.56 with the right ammo is perfectly fine. I think we are saying the same thing
.

I think so too. I'm just surprised at the results you saw. Either way, if you tested it and saw what you describe, that's far better than someone assuming anything, which is what I think happens more than not. Still an interesting test and I think we should all do our own, testing our exact components for ourselves. A little change in bullet construction could make a massive change in the results. Not to mention the smaller details, like a few fps could have a significant change in results too. But yeah...I think we agree and I wasn't trying to argue or even debate it. Just saying I think testing is what we should do rather than trusting a video or magazine article on something that we all hope never happens, but could have a huge effect on us in so many ways, if it does.

 

[6Creed73]

I think so too. I'm just surprised at the results you saw. Either way, if you tested it and saw what you describe, that's far better than someone assuming anything, which is what I think happens more than not. Still an interesting test and I think we should all do our own, testing our exact components for ourselves. A little change in bullet construction could make a massive change in the results. Not to mention the smaller details, like a few fps could have a significant change in results too. But yeah...I think we agree and I wasn't trying to argue or even debate it. Just saying I think testing is what we should do rather than trusting a video or magazine article on something that we all hope never happens, but could have a huge effect on us in so many ways, if it does.

The only thing I'd like to do again if I retest is to try to see how far the mangled bullet would travel after it got through the plywood.

I was shooting at a friend's land and he has sandbags as a backstop. We recovered the lead, but the jacket was gone. It would be nice to see how far that deformed piece of lead would travel past the plywood. Not sure how we'd do that though. But either way, my house is brick like I said. Not only is it brick, it was built in the early 70's when they used double brick construction. So...drywall, insulation, plywood, 1st brick wall, 2nd brick wall. I'm not worried one bit about over penetration through a wall.

 

[dryhumor]

If a shotgun, you might want to think about what type shells are in it. Buckshot, slugs, high brass turkey loads…

Or a 10ga with T steel shot.

 

[LiveFire]

So much fuddlore in this comment. There is nothing wrong with using an AR for home defense. Even a 5.56 with the right ammo. I have an AR in 300BLK that is in my bedroom for home defense. It's an SBR so easy to move around the house with, and it's supressed so I don't blow out mine or my wife's ears. My AR with subsonic ammo won't penetrate any more than a handgun.

I agree fully with you If i had a suppressor for 5.56 I would most likely build a short ar15 and use some type of more frangible bullet. Perhaps like has been mentioned, vmax. Id have to research it better and test. The last thing id use is a shotgun with bird shot which has been mentioned here. Buck is a different animal. Especially number 4 or larger. But I like number 4.

To add to the lore, you do have to actually aim a shotgun, especially close. They are not point in general direction and pull trigger. Shot patterns stay tight inside a house. And the gun store rhetoric of racking a pump to scare away an intruder just gives you away. Where you are and what you have. Unless you have a SBS turning around in a narrow hall can be difficult with one too. I find in my training a shotgun is probably the hardest long gun to master.

 

[AccelR8]

Concerning 223/5.56 over penetration of walls, what about a frangible bullet such as Barnes' MPG? Any test on that?

 

[David Milisock]

Concerning 223/5.56 over penetration of walls, what about a frangible bullet such as Barnes' MPG? Any test on that?

I can only say test them. As I train and have experience in close and fast in the house I prefer a small handgun, a 38, or a short 9MM like a 380 or a 9MM Makarov. A very reduced risk of collateral damage and enough fire power to do the job.

 

[TrapperBR549]

To add to the lore, you do have to actually aim a shotgun, especially close. They are not point in general direction and pull trigger. Shot patterns stay tight inside a house. And the gun store rhetoric of racking a pump to scare away an intruder just gives you away. Where you are and what you have. Unless you have a SBS turning around in a narrow hall can be difficult with one too. I find in my training a shotgun is probably the hardest long gun to master.

I agree. I can't count how many times I have read or heard someone mention a shotgun for home defense. I haven't tried any of the "spreader" loads but a 12ga cylinder bore pattern will only be a couple inches in diameter at 15 or 20 ft. Better than .223" but still not a lot of margin for error.

 

[Rick300]

I don't understand this thinking of using a bullet like a Vmax. If you get a guy hopped up on drugs wearing his heavy hoodie, all you're likely to do is cause a bruise and give him time to charge you. A Vmax is not designed to penetrate and will almost surely fragment on contact. I think the suggestions above are right on to find some ammo with enough penetration to do the job but not go through your neighbors house (if you have them). A Vmax will fragment on a squirrel so I don't see how it can possibly be effective on a drugged up (or not) human.

 

[LiveFire]

all you're likely to do is cause a bruise

Well thats not whats going to happen. Hornady tap urban is a 60gr vmax with a cannelure. It fails the FBI recommended penetration into gel. Falls short. Thats the idea though and 9.75" of penetration is hardly a bruise. Im sure you didnt really mean a bruise but the bullet is tougher than some think. I know people that use them to harvest does. Good idea or not I dunno but they bring home venison. Some LE use this load.

60 gr TAP URBAN® - Hornady Law Enforcement

...

www.hornadyle.com

 

[Rick300]

Well thats not whats going to happen. Hornady tap urban is a 60gr vmax with a cannelure. It fails the FBI recommended penetration into gel. Falls short. Thats the idea though and 9.75" of penetration is hardly a bruise. Im sure you didnt really mean a bruise but the bullet is tougher than some think. I know people that use them to harvest does. Good idea or not I dunno but they bring home venison. Some LE use this load.

60 gr TAP URBAN® - Hornady Law Enforcement

...

www.hornadyle.com

Well I sure wouldn't want to stand in front of one. What I meant to imply is that I want enough firepower for a one shot kill without excessive penetration. Because I use the Vmax for varmint hunting I was basing those comments on my experience with squirrels. There's surely something in-between a fmj and a Vmax that will do the job just fine.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I loved the..."I'm too pretty for prison" remark!

Here's another test. Lacking of many choices. Another reason to test yourself.

.223 Drywall Penetration: Results