Interesting mock trial study on use of an AR15 for home defense

[AlNyhus]

Lawyers are all about crafting perspective/appearance.

If you have a handgun, AR, tactical shotgun, that looks overly intimidating, and is decked out with all kinds of gadgets, it will be easier to instill the perception of the homeowner being the aggressor rather than the victim.

Very, very true.

Some years ago, an attempted break in of my home at 1:00 AM ended up with the pair face down and spread eagle on my driveway when the police arrived. After the address, the next question the dispatcher asked was what kind of gun I was holding the pair with.

That question came up more than a few times as the case worked it's way through the judicial system. -Al

 

[David Milisock]

Most of those citations are from studies/papers written in the late 90s to early 2000s. I wonder if the national coverage of clintons assault weapons ban held any bearing on those people involved in the studies.

Ar15 rifles are in more gun cabinets now than they were in the 90s. Now theyre also afield in many hunting scenarios. Theyve become way more common place.

Not long ago we watched one of the most controversial court cases involving an ar15 playout on tv. Kyle Rittenhouse had the dech stacked against him. The media portrayed him as looking to kill using a weapon of war and a prosecutor who had no problem trying to mislead a jury. Social media ran smear campaigns on him. The media intentionally edited videos to make him look guilty and played the victim card for the guys who were shot. However, he walked out a free man. Im not saying thats gonna be the case for everybody. There are too many variables.

I'll worry about jail after my wife and kids are safe. Whatever legal advantage thats available to me I will use.

I got this post started so I'll chime in. Unless you haven't seen Paul Harrell and Garand Thumbs tests you'll need to rethink you concepts.

I have a dog, I makes sure my doors and windows are locked, my wife has a 38, I keep an expanding baton and a 9MM Makarov. I don't want to shoot through 1 wall of my house possibly causing a collateral injury, 8 shots from a Makarov or 5 shots from a 38 will do the job.

I suggest you look up the YouTube channels I suggested and see, my 30 Carbine with ball ammo will shoot clear through my mid 1970's built house, with soft or hollow points through 3 walls. A short barred AR will keyhole but will penetrate 2 walls a 16" will do 3.

A firearm is certainly part of home defense but there's alot more to it than just the firearm.

 

[M-61]

Is there a high capacity fuel tankl?

Cat diesel......can dig trenches for quite a few hours on one tank!!

 

[David Milisock]

Cat diesel......can dig trenches for quite a few hours on one tank!!

You need a class 3 permit for that, you can bury way too many bodies!

 

[LiveFire]

I got this post started so I'll chime in. Unless you haven't seen Paul Harrell and Garand Thumbs tests you'll need to rethink you concepts.

I have a dog, I makes sure my doors and windows are locked, my wife has a 38, I keep an expanding baton and a 9MM Makarov. I don't want to shoot through 1 wall of my house possibly causing a collateral injury, 8 shots from a Makarov or 5 shots from a 38 will do the job.

I suggest you look up the YouTube channels I suggested and see, my 30 Carbine with ball ammo will shoot clear through my mid 1970's built house, with soft or hollow points through 3 walls. A short barred AR will keyhole but will penetrate 2 walls a 16" will do 3.

A firearm is certainly part of home defense but there's alot more to it than just the firearm.

Ive seen those youtube channels. I understand over penetration. I did not say I used an ar15. I questioned the articles cited studies based on the time frame they were conducted. A lot has changed since then.

I carried a glock 21 for a living doing transportation runs for the michigan department of corrections just shy of 5 years. My bedside gun is a Glock 19. I got familiar with glocks and fired many many many rounds through that glock 21. I carry a glock 19, so does my wife. I shoot around 100-150rds of ammunition a week to stay proficient. If all i had was an ar15 id use it and I would select ammunition to make it more viable for indoor use.

Realistically any firearm that is going to penetrate deep enough into flesh to quickly incapacitate someone is going to penetrate walls. Sure some more than others.

 

[David Milisock]

Ive seen those youtube channels. I understand over penetration. I did not say I used an ar15. I questioned the articles cited studies based on the time frame they were conducted. A lot has changed since then.

I carried a glock 21 for a living doing transportation runs for the michigan department of corrections just shy of 5 years. My bedside gun is a Glock 19. I got familiar with glocks and fired many many many rounds through that glock 21. I carry a glock 19, so does my wife. I shoot around 100-150rds of ammunition a week to stay proficient. If all i had was an ar15 id use it and I would select ammunition to make it more viable for indoor use.

Realistically any firearm that is going to penetrate deep enough into flesh to quickly incapacitate someone is going to penetrate walls. Sure some more than others.

I have a Gen 2 Glock 19, they're a very solid handgun.

I don’t think things have changed enough in terms of the public perception for the AR. In my area (where I live) no problem but any issue would be tried in County Court and the jury pool has a good chance of having a shallow end.

If I end up in a Philadelphia Court all bets are off! The jury pool not only has a shallow end but a few leaks as well.

 

[RKS]

.....After the address, the next question the dispatcher asked was what kind of gun I was holding the pair with.

That question came up more than a few times as the case worked it's way through the judicial system. -Al

"The kind that stopped these criminals from hurting, terrorizing, or doing worse to myself and my family."

"The kind that was more effective in stopping crime/criminals than what the politicians, laws, and law enforcement was able to do before it showed up on my doorstep."

 

[338 Mollett]

By all means pray for their souls ..............while you are pulling the trigger !!

 

[Tesoro]

Here in Oregon, if things go bad with the latest pending gun law, any firearm with a detachable mag will be illegal. AND any firearm capable of more than ten rounds capacity.

We may be the first state where you see otherwise law abiding citizens dragged off to the penitentiary for possessing something that is legal in every other state. jd

Who tells you this stuff? Measure 114 ( the bad one) does not prohibit any type of firearm ownership but it does restrict sale/possession of hi-cap mags. BUT if you already owned them beforehand then you can possess them legally at home for defense or for range competitions etc, and hunting if applicable.
What you wont be able to do if this thing happens is move around your society with a weapon that has more than 11 rounds in it.

 

[Steel Mover]

You live in the wrong neighborhood if it is illegal to protect yourself, any way you can, or with whatever is handy at the time. Suggest you, and seriously, move.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A simple test for bullet penetration is to use some scrap drywall and 2x4's and maybe a piece of osb. The idea being to simulate an exterior wall of a typical house but build it a few walls thick with drywall, stud, drywall stud, etc, and the osb on the outside. I've done this and there's a huge difference inhow far some bullets will pentrate vs others. It's important to shoot it at close range. 21ft is the fbi qualifying distance because it's the average distance that a firearm is used in a confrontation, per their reports. A 223 with a frangible bullet, like a 55 v-max will surprise you. Not much penetration. I wouldn't want to be standing on the other side, mind you..but try this test for yourself sometime.

 

[LiveFire]

A simple test for bullet penetration is to use some scrap drywall and 2x4's and maybe a piece of osb. The idea being to simulate an exterior wall of a typical house but build it a few walls thick with drywall, stud, drywall stud, etc, and the osb on the outside. I've done this and there's a huge difference inhow far some bullets will pentrate vs others. It's important to shoot it at close range. 21ft is the fbi qualifying distance because it's the average distance that a firearm is used in a confrontation, per their reports. A 223 with a frangible bullet, like a 55 v-max will surprise you. Not much penetration. I wouldn't want to be standing on the other side, mind you..but try this test for yourself sometime.

Not directed to you,just using your example And in some cases a 9mm from a pistol will keep going and going far beyond what most people would think. I think your best bet is ammunition selection for whatever platform youre using and practice. Practice a lot and then practice more. So you can hit what you are aiming at. Try to practice under stress. One way to induce stress is competitive shooting. Perhaps find formal training if youve had none. If you ever get the opportunity to do simunitions training, do it. We did a lot of that and it opened up several peoples eyes. You will revert to your highest level of training/experience once that adrenaline dump happens. Have some type of plan for your family. And shut up when police arrive. Of course not having someone break in in the first place trumps all that. A quality security system including cameras, motion, door and window contacts as well as a way to remotely view them is a great idea. Im sure theres many other things that other users here with more experience may suggest.

 

[spaniel]

Using a AR15 to guard your home has never been a good idea unless you want to kill everyone on the other side of your target. The only plus it has is the scary look of it as far as home defense goes.

If you can't think of a better way to protect your family than that, then you might be better off with a baseball bat or bear trap. Try thinking of something that only removes the trash, not those living close to you as well.

Mock up a couple walls with drywall and 2x4 scraps, then fire a standard defensive handgun through them and a 223 with VMAX bullets. You will find that your assumptions are wrong.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not directed to you,just using your example And in some cases a 9mm from a pistol will keep going and going far beyond what most people would think. I think your best bet is ammunition selection for whatever platform youre using and practice. Practice a lot and then practice more. So you can hit what you are aiming at. Try to practice under stress. One way to induce stress is competitive shooting. Perhaps find formal training if youve had none. If you ever get the opportunity to do simunitions training, do it. We did a lot of that and it opened up several peoples eyes. You will revert to your highest level of training/experience once that adrenaline dump happens. Have some type of plan for your family. And shut up when police arrive. Of course not having someone break in in the first place trumps all that. A quality security system including cameras, motion, door and window contacts as well as a way to remotely view them is a great idea. Im sure theres many other things that other users here with more experience may suggest.

All good advice. When I shot the run and gun game a few years back, the most enlightening time of all to me(yes, pun intended) was a night shoot. Imagine being in maybe the most stressful moment in your life(intruder), guns go off and you're blinded by the muzzle flash of many powders, deafened by the noise inside and in a fight for your and your family's life. I started buying or loading specific low flash ammo from that point on. I agree that practice is paramount but I'm not sure how any of us would respond in that scenario. It's easy to say you'll do fine but just try to imagine all that at once. The only good part is likely that the bad guy is likely even less prepared for it all...if you train for it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mock up a couple walls with drywall and 2x4 scraps, then fire a standard defensive handgun through them and a 223 with VMAX bullets. You will find that your assumptions are wrong.

That's exactly what I found too. It's definitely a test everyone should do. It's surprising at least. Also, do it at very close range, like 21ft

 

[jdh47]

Every dog we had would've welcomed a criminal in. That said, the Second Amendment makes no distinction or comment about how intimidating a firearm is. Of course in this environment anything goes especially with many of the leftist judges we have practicing the trade. I do believe that a short barreled pump or double would be pretty good for home defense should the need arise. I also believe that a 20, 28 or 410 would be easier to bring to bare and just as lethal at close range.
A picture of Nancy Pelosi drunk in evening attire might have the effect Medusa inflicted on a crook in the middle of the night.

 

[LiveFire]

All good advice. When I shot the run and gun game a few years back, the most enlightening time of all to me(yes, pun intended) was a night shoot. Imagine being in maybe the most stressful moment in your life(intruder), guns go off and you're blinded by the muzzle flash of many powders, deafened by the noise inside and in a fight for your and your family's life. I started buying or loading specific low flash ammo from that point on. I agree that practice is paramount but I'm not sure how any of us would respond in that scenario. It's easy to say you'll do fine but just try to imagine all that at once. The only good part is likely that the bad guy is likely even less prepared for it all...if you train for it.

The biggest hurdle is being reactionary. You can assume what you would do but unless faced with that specific scenario it definitley is hard. Criminals think way differently than non criminals. In my time as a corrections officer I learned that the real criminals the multiple offenders want to take everything they can from a victim. They view the average person as existing just to be used by them for whatever they need and they dont care what state they leave you in. If somebody is breaking into your home its likely not their first time and i can only assume that person is there to do me harm. Of course you have to be able to identify that person is a threat, not a kid sneaking out the window. To comment on your indoor and night shooting. The reason I dont use an ar15 in 223/556 is exactly because of the concussive effect. They are extremely loud outside. Indoor theyre physically painful. A service caliber handgun is a bit more tolerable. But thats a compromise one must make for themselves.

 

[coldboreshot]

Preference:
NVG's, Reeves/Harsey fixed and an "oh shit" Serbu Super-Shorty.

 

[elee3]

If you’re worried about perception of your gun/ammo choice (I’m not), just use a 20 gauge with bird shot. At home defense distances, it will cause a devastating wound in a body.

 

[6Creed73]

Using a AR15 to guard your home has never been a good idea unless you want to kill everyone on the other side of your target. The only plus it has is the scary look of it as far as home defense goes.

If you can't think of a better way to protect your family than that, then you might be better off with a baseball bat or bear trap. Try thinking of something that only removes the trash, not those living close to you as well.

So much fuddlore in this comment. There is nothing wrong with using an AR for home defense. Even a 5.56 with the right ammo. I have an AR in 300BLK that is in my bedroom for home defense. It's an SBR so easy to move around the house with, and it's supressed so I don't blow out mine or my wife's ears. My AR with subsonic ammo won't penetrate any more than a handgun.