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Induction brass annealer redux

jeffo1960 said:
do I need a Sestos Digital Quartic Timer Relay Switch 100-240V B3S
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t be one to answer this. I used 3 wafer push wheel switches (for time up to 9.99 seconds) and a PIC microcontroller to decode it (also for trap door control, case present detection and now flame temperature sensor).

“…..and not using no AC voltage….”

what does this mean?
 
McFred said:

Timed and/or non-contact IR-switched induction annealer control.
Director's commentary:
1. Timed, no case, no IR switch.
2. IR switched, multiple times. Case starts cold then warms up.
3. IR switched.
4. IR switched.
5. Obstructed IR switch cooks case. Obstruction removed, IR sensor interrupts timer.
6. Obstructed IR switch cooks case. Obstruction removed, IR sensor interrupts timer.

The yellow green light is the work coil on. The blue light is the timer powering the tank circuit.

Only the IR sensor's perceived temperature of the brass matters, not the acutal temperature. It only matters that it switches consistently. IMO the timer is less accurate especially with high-wattage annealers on small cases with different neck/shoulder-thicknesses. Calibrate the sensor with Tempilaq then leave it alone for a specific cartridge.

IR control is better than a timer because:
• Can do mixed headstamps.
• dirty brass with foreign residue (water, dirt, lube) reach the same temperature.
• Ambient/brass temperatures do not affect degree of annealing.
• With long annealing strings annealer hardware components heat up and can change effective output.
Click to expand...

I've been using my annealer to process a bunch of range brass and the IR control is key to getting a consistent temperature. I'm surprised the timer is still so popular in this thread, given the other advancements in the designs I've seen here. I can do better than a timer with the mark one eyeball. Using IR, I've been seeing a timing range of almost 0.5s even with 308 brass with all the same headstamp.
 
I have been on here a long time and my 3rd time reading ,and a lot to take in,i have been very impressed with the builds and give credit to all of you,so i am finally going to have a go.
 
McFred said:
ICalibrate the sensor with Tempilaq then leave it alone for a specific cartridge.
Click to expand...
What is your sensor? I use https://www.dfrobot.com/product-195.html.
And what is the tempilaq temperature rating - 1000?

Thanks

I'm building Arduino based closed loop (feed back) control, following the info from @VenatusDominus.
Actually, the only thing left is to calibrate the temperature and maintain it (+/- 5%) for 1.88 sec.

B=1.38065x10^-23 (Boltzmann constant)
E=0.327x10^-18 (constant for the material, in this case brass)
T1 in Kelvin = 644 (700 F)
t1 in sec = 3600 (1hour)
T2 in Kelvin = target temp
t2 in sec = time to anneal

t2=t1*exp^(-E/B*(1/T1 - 1/T2))

This is easy to plug into Excel and if you pick 810.9 K (1000 F) for your target temp you will anneal in 1.88 seconds.
 
McFred said:
I've been using my annealer to process a bunch of range brass and the IR control is key to getting a consistent temperature. I'm surprised the timer is still so popular in this thread, given the other advancements in the designs I've seen here. I can do better than a timer with the mark one eyeball. Using IR, I've been seeing a timing range of almost 0.5s even with 308 brass with all the same headstamp.
Click to expand...

One of the problems is that the information is spread out over so many pages of posts that
it is difficult for many to get it all together.

I believe a new thread with drawings instructions specifically for the IR control setup
would benefit all looking to build this as this thread has become too bloated.
 
oliverpsmile said:
What is your sensor? I use https://www.dfrobot.com/product-195.html.
And what is the tempilaq temperature rating - 1000?

Thanks

I'm building Arduino based closed loop (feed back) control, following the info from @VenatusDominus.
Actually, the only thing left is to calibrate the temperature and maintain it (+/- 5%) for 1.88 sec.

B=1.38065x10^-23 (Boltzmann constant)
E=0.327x10^-18 (constant for the material, in this case brass)
T1 in Kelvin = 644 (700 F)
t1 in sec = 3600 (1hour)
T2 in Kelvin = target temp
t2 in sec = time to anneal

t2=t1*exp^(-E/B*(1/T1 - 1/T2))

This is easy to plug into Excel and if you pick 810.9 K (1000 F) for your target temp you will anneal in 1.88 seconds.
Click to expand...
The one I used is -

Amazon.com: Teyleten Robot IR Infrared Flame Detection Sensor Module IR Flame Sensor Module Detector Sensor Temperature Detecting 3 Wire Compatible for Arduino 10pcs : Electronics

Buy Teyleten Robot IR Infrared Flame Detection Sensor Module IR Flame Sensor Module Detector Sensor Temperature Detecting 3 Wire Compatible for Arduino 10pcs: Motion Detectors - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases
www.amazon.com
 
If you want to know when the case starts to glow, you can do it with a current sensor.
I've experimented a lot with using machine learning (multiple regression) to predict "perfect" time. In trying to eliminate variables I discovered something interesting, when I switched from trying to predict time, to predicting current and energy.
A linear relationship between current measured at certain time and the current measured when case (neck, any part of neck) starts to glow - across different cases. (Not to be confused with the linear increase in current over time in a case)
The following graph shows measurements for 9 different cases (9 calibers from 6BR to 300WM). What it implies is that by measuring current at time x and current when case starts to glow for at least 2 cases, you can calibrate your machine, and then be able to predict the current when any case starts to glow by just measuring the current for that case at the time used to develop the function - e.g. at 0.2 second. There you have a reference point without destroying a case :)
Screenshot 2021-11-17 at 22.29.12.png
 
I need a bit of help I have decided to build one more or less identical to the the one on page 1, this the correct Timer

SESTOS DIGITAL QUARTIC TIMER PANEL MOUNT B3S2R220
 
I guess I kind of gave up on the IR sensor awhile back (time flies, may have been a couple of years ago, I'd have to go back in this thread and try and find it). Reason was the brass actually had to glow in order for the IR sensor to sense anything. I thought this was pushing too far. Is a slight glow now considered the correct temperature range, when using Tempilaq it never did glow? I will admit that a lot of times I never got the brass to have the "blue" tenting color.
 
ottsm said:
Is a slight glow now considered the correct temperature range, when using Tempilaq it never did glow? I will admit that a lot of times I never got the brass to have the "blue" tenting color.
Click to expand...
When the brass starts glowing I HOPE it is 950 degree and the IR sensor responds accordingly. From that point I'm using it as a thermostat - switching the ZVS board ON/OFF within 5% (arround 1000 degree) for 1.88 sec (in accordance with the above formula).

In my experimental prototype the entire annealing time is 3.6 seconds (48 volts, 13 amps, Fluxeon ferrit core inductor ).

I credit @Standrdelg for his experiments with pulsing annealing and @VenatusDominus for the formula.
 
Thanks for that Gina,i would prefer to go down the DC route,do you know if this would be suitable,for DC
Sestos Digital Quartic Timer Relay Switch 12-24V Omron Relay Ce B3S
 
Last edited:
oliverpsmile said:
When the brass starts glowing I HOPE it is 950 degree and the IR sensor responds accordingly. From that point I'm using it as a thermostat - switching the ZVS board ON/OFF within 5% (arround 1000 degree) for 1.88 sec (in accordance with the above formula).

In my experimental prototype the entire annealing time is 3.6 seconds (48 volts, 13 amps, Fluxeon ferrit core inductor ).

I credit @Standrdelg for his experiments with pulsing annealing and @VenatusDominus for the formula.
Click to expand...
I purchased a Fluxeon ferrit core myself but never got around to trying it out, mainly got it to simplify the overall design and ditch the cooling water and the long term issues after setting around several years. I don't need to anneal large lots off brass, generally just doing 100 at a time. If 950 degree is the target then yes the IR sensor will work and I'm willing to give it a go again. Guess this has always been a question at what temperature is suppose to be achieved.
 
I decided to try annealing longer than 750 deg tempilac based on Patrice’s work and some testing done by Eric Cortina on over annealed brass. When I annealed till it just started to glow it was almost a whole second longer (2.6 to 3.4 sec). The result was the neck bump took .004 less using Reading competition shell holders and the expander mandrel was .0005 smaller for the same seating force. My conclusion is the 750 deg tempilac doesn’t get the brass hot enough for long enough to properly anneal the brass on my machine. YMMV.
 
Does anyone one know were i can pick up 1 of these,as looked everywhere and no joy
Sestos Digital Quartic Timer Relay Switch 12-24V B3S
 
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