Induction brass annealer redux

[NearZero]

Hi There,

I just started shooting long distance and want to begin annealing my brass. I want build my own annealing machine and was wondering if there are directions on how to actually build one. I've seen some posts that talk about parts and stuff but didn't see any actual plans that show how to wire the whole thing. In short help!!!!!

 

[Gina1]

Induction brass annealer redux

My first annealer was built with the help of hollywood. He worked long and hard on finding the right coil size. He also came up with the water cooled coil and the radiator/pump system for it. I added the timer system, trap door, and voltage/current monitor meter. Together we came up with what...

forum.accurateshooter.com

If your a little handy with electronics, this might be what your looking for. As you can see there are many pages to this thread. The schematic (wiring diagram) is on page 110. Some how it was removed from page one. Some parts listed are no longer available so you will have to figure away around them for a substitute.
Lots of good advice from other builders in them pages.
Building the basic "GinaErck" is the best way to go. Simple and straight forward. Lots of these have been built all over the states and around the world.
Hope this helps
Gina

 

[NearZero]

Induction brass annealer redux

My first annealer was built with the help of hollywood. He worked long and hard on finding the right coil size. He also came up with the water cooled coil and the radiator/pump system for it. I added the timer system, trap door, and voltage/current monitor meter. Together we came up with what...

forum.accurateshooter.com

If your a little handy with electronics, this might be what your looking for. As you can see there are many pages to this thread. The schematic (wiring diagram) is on page 110. Some how it was removed from page one. Some parts listed are no longer available so you will have to figure away around them for a substitute.
Lots of good advice from other builders in them pages.
Building the basic "GinaErck" is the best way to go. Simple and straight forward. Lots of these have been built all over the states and around the world.
Hope this helps
Gina

Found it! Thank you.

 

[NearZero]

Sorry if this may seem like a stupid question but I have 24 volt power supply and 12-36V 20A 1000W induction heating board. Will this affect any other components you listed?

Sorry I have a less then basic knowledge of electronics.

​

 

[itchyTF]

What is the watt rating for your power supply?

 

[Gina1]

Sorry if this may seem like a stupid question but I have 24 volt power supply and 12-36V 20A 1000W induction heating board. Will this affect any other components you listed?

Sorry I have a less then basic knowledge of electronics.

​

Some builders have used a 36 volts to power the induction board. In your case the power supply is rated for 20 amps (hopefully on the 36 volt side) In my listing of parts I call for a 48 volts at 12.5 amps, which is 600 watts.
For the 36 volt power supply, 36 volts X 20 amps = 720 watts. It should work.
The 12 volts from that power supply can power the volt/amp meter. water pump. Also replacing the 110 ac volt fans with 12 volt DC fans.
Your 24 volt power supply can be used to operate the trap door solenoid. Since the 12 volt solenoid (with a 3/4"- 1" throw) is no longer available) some builders have found a 24 volt replacement.
At this point... looks good.

Gina

 

[Patrice COTTES]

But that begs the question I posted quite some time ago about the validity of your "expected values" curve. Your prior tests and comments suggesting "not enough annealed" would appear to be invalidated if the annealing of this popular, recently purchased, annealer is correct. Consider position 3 when heated to glowing red (post 2370) - it went to circa 120 Vickers HV. Factory annealer pins that closer to 128 (post 2377). The manufacturer would argue that your target is incorrect.

We need two things: (1) a target that is valid with respect to metallurgy plus (2) - and why your Tempilaq vs hardness tests are so important - a readily useable measurement stick. But you've got to have (1) right first.

Hello
My expected values curves come from two sources.
- First one comes from "AMP", give a look at this page : https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/



I've found also on their web site this publication: https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
NOTE; the cases were sized after annealing, resulting in work hardening



- second one comes from own measurements on 220 russian virgin lapua cases.
On virgin cases I only measured the hardness on neck and just after the shoulder. Why? because i had not prepared for those cases the right support for measuring shoulder.
3 measurements on neck, first 1 mm after the neck end, second one in the middle of the neck and last one 1 mm before the shoulder.

On body, measurements were done past the point of the shoulder, first one 1 mm after the shoulder, second one 3 mm further and last one 3 mm further.



I'm not a mettalurgist, just a mechanics teacher.
The expected values shown on my graphs come from my own measurements and from web sites publications.
But for me and for many people, the purpose of accurate annealing is to produce consistent and repeatable neck and shoulder hardness.

Note: As I said many times 6 PPC cases with a .262" neck is a very big challenge for getting a linear annealing from end of the neck to the body.
For sure, if one day I can test hardness on 308 or 300 win mag annealed cases I'm pretty sure that annealing will be more consistent, I mean more linear because the neck walls are pretty more thicker.
Today I was curious and annealed some 300 win mag cases (winchester brand).
The shoulder got red at the same time with the neck, But I didn't measure hardness.
I hope one day I'll have enough time.

But that begs the question I posted quite some time ago about the validity of your "expected values" curve. Your prior tests and comments suggesting "not enough annealed" would appear to be invalidated if the annealing of this popular, recently purchased, annealer is correct.

I said "not enough annealed" because my reference was what I saw on web sites and my own measurements.
Obviously, theory is theory, The reality on the ground is quite different.
Therefore, I'm pretty satisfied by the results I obtained with my home made machine, that means that Gina Eric conducted very successful researches. Thanks so much to them.

Then why am I so interested by the use of tempilaq?
If I can find a relation between hardness and cooking temperature, I should no longer have to return to laboratory.

I hope my english is good enough for explaining the results I obtained.

Best regards

Patrice

 

[Patrice COTTES]

heureux de voir que Gina Eric fonctionne aussi bien ca evite les choses bien trop compliqué restons simple et efficace.
glad that Gina Eric works as well it avoids things too complicated remain simple and effective

Tout à fait d’accord avec vous.
Français, Canadien?

 

[NearZero]

What is the watt rating for your power supply?

360W.

 

[Seafury]

Tout à fait d’accord avec vous.
Français, Canadien?

je dirai plutôt français de France

plus particulièrement entre les Vosges et l’Alsace

j’apprends beaucoup sur les site USA , c'est une nation ou vous pouvez discuter librement et évolué sur les armes et ils ont toujours une longueur d'avance sur nous.

ce post est la preuve beaucoup de discussion et de partage il permet a celui qui se donne les moyens de réaliser ce projet.

Néanmoins une chose difficile reste a trouver le temps de cuisson idéal
merci a tous pour votre participation

I will say rather French of France
More particularly between the Vosges and Alsace
I'm learning a lot on the USA site, it's a nation or you can discuss freely and evolved on weapons and they always have a step ahead of us.
This post is proof a lot of discussion and sharing it allows the one who gives themselves the means to realize this project.
Nevertheless a difficult thing remains to find the ideal cooking time
Thank you all for your participation

 

[itchyTF]

360W.

If the 24v supply is rated for 360W and you were intending on using that for the induction power source, don't believe that will be enough. Maybe for rimfire cases!

 

[SGK]

Hello
My expected values curves come from two sources.
- First one comes from "AMP", give a look at this page : https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/

View attachment 1240156

I've found also on their web site this publication: https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
NOTE; the cases were sized after annealing, resulting in work hardening

View attachment 1240157

- second one comes from own measurements on 220 russian virgin lapua cases.
On virgin cases I only measured the hardness on neck and just after the shoulder. Why? because i had not prepared for those cases the right support for measuring shoulder.
3 measurements on neck, first 1 mm after the neck end, second one in the middle of the neck and last one 1 mm before the shoulder.

On body, measurements were done past the point of the shoulder, first one 1 mm after the shoulder, second one 3 mm further and last one 3 mm further.

View attachment 1240155

I'm not a mettalurgist, just a mechanics teacher.
The expected values shown on my graphs come from my own measurements and from web sites publications.
But for me and for many people, the purpose of accurate annealing is to produce consistent and repeatable neck and shoulder hardness.

Note: As I said many times 6 PPC cases with a .262" neck is a very big challenge for getting a linear annealing from end of the neck to the body.
For sure, if one day I can test hardness on 308 or 300 win mag annealed cases I'm pretty sure that annealing will be more consistent, I mean more linear because the neck walls are pretty more thicker.
Today I was curious and annealed some 300 win mag cases (winchester brand).
The shoulder got red at the same time with the neck, But I didn't measure hardness.
I hope one day I'll have enough time.

But that begs the question I posted quite some time ago about the validity of your "expected values" curve. Your prior tests and comments suggesting "not enough annealed" would appear to be invalidated if the annealing of this popular, recently purchased, annealer is correct.

I said "not enough annealed" because my reference was what I saw on web sites and my own measurements.
Obviously, theory is theory, The reality on the ground is quite different.
Therefore, I'm pretty satisfied by the results I obtained with my home made machine, that means that Gina Eric conducted very successful researches. Thanks so much to them.

Then why am I so interested by the use of tempilaq?
If I can find a relation between hardness and cooking temperature, I should no longer have to return to laboratory.

I hope my english is good enough for explaining the results I obtained.

Best regards

Patrice

Patrice, don't get me wrong - I think the work you are doing is great and really helpful. I'm just making the point that we need a valid target and a valid - and easy - measurement stick to determine if we hit that target. You derived from theory and references (including from AMP) a target curve. The commercial machine - you haven't disclosed which machine this is - didn't hit that target (any better than the GinaErik did). So, I don't think having the GinaErik replicate the commercial machine provides any comfort unless the target is wrong or the best machines out there can't hit the target curve either and both are "doing the best that's absolutely possible". That would be good if the commercial machine was 'best in class'... Share the name/brand of the commercial machine.

 

[Patrice COTTES]

Patrice, don't get me wrong - I think the work you are doing is great and really helpful. I'm just making the point that we need a valid target and a valid - and easy - measurement stick to determine if we hit that target. You derived from theory and references (including from AMP) a target curve. The commercial machine - you haven't disclosed which machine this is - didn't hit that target (any better than the GinaErik did). So, I don't think having the GinaErik replicate the commercial machine provides any comfort unless the target is wrong or the best machines out there can't hit the target curve either and both are "doing the best that's absolutely possible". That would be good if the commercial machine was 'best in class'... Share the name/brand of the commercial machine.

Hello
I don't want to get you wrong.
I appreciate your comments and your approch of the subject.
I know now that the target is the correct one.
For sure it's correct
Let me explain why?
My friend who bought the commercial machine sent to the company where he bought it the results I obtained with his annealed cases.
He explained them that with my home made machine I got the same curve as that obtained with the commercial one.
He wanted to know if by adjusting the heating program (+ or -), he could improve the annealing results.
Now I can give the name of the machine.
It's an AMP
Let me recall that all my tests were conducted on 6 PPC cases, very challenging caliber regarding its neck wall thickness.
As you can read below, my words are corroborated by the president of AMP
The President Alex FINDLAY himself answered directly to my friend and here you can find his answer:
Very reactive and kind and professional person.

"We are well aware of this issue with 6 PPC cases. It occurs because 6 PPC reloaders almost always turn the necks down to 0.0085” or thereabouts. The original neck wall of the Lapua 220 Russian, when expanded to 6 mm is usually a little over 0.014”, meaning the shoulder wall is around 0.015” – 0.016”, and the body thicker again. This means that it is impossible to get the correct amount of heat into the shoulder to anneal it perfectly without over-annealing the neck. The thin neck heats up much faster than the thicker shoulder and body. In almost all other cartridges the neck wall thickness is the same as, or just slightly thinner than the shoulder, allowing for the correct annealing of all areas.

In our settings for 6 PPC we have chosen to anneal the neck correctly. Your Vickers readings confirm that. Because the shoulder cannot be annealed as soft as usual, the reloader needs to adjust their shoulder bump accordingly.

Regards

Alex Findlay – President

So for now I stop testing on 6 PPC, I won't be able to do better.
My next tests will be conducted on one other caliber at least and I'm pretty sure that my results will be very close to the target.
I'm shooting 308 win, 25.06 rem, 35 whelen, 9.3x62 mauser, 270 win, 300 win mag etc...
Have a good day
Best regards
Patrice

 

[SGK]

Kiwis are good blokes. I'm not surprised he responded.

Good stuff. Probably the best caliber for you to focus on would be 308 Win given its popularity. I look forward to the Tempilaq tests.

 

[Patrice COTTES]

je dirai plutôt français de France

plus particulièrement entre les Vosges et l’Alsace

j’apprends beaucoup sur les site USA , c'est une nation ou vous pouvez discuter librement et évolué sur les armes et ils ont toujours une longueur d'avance sur nous.

ce post est la preuve beaucoup de discussion et de partage il permet a celui qui se donne les moyens de réaliser ce projet.

Néanmoins une chose difficile reste a trouver le temps de cuisson idéal
merci a tous pour votre participation

I will say rather French of France
More particularly between the Vosges and Alsace
I'm learning a lot on the USA site, it's a nation or you can discuss freely and evolved on weapons and they always have a step ahead of us.
This post is proof a lot of discussion and sharing it allows the one who gives themselves the means to realize this project.
Nevertheless a difficult thing remains to find the ideal cooking time
Thank you all for your participation

Bonjour,
Je ne suis donc pas le seul Français ici. C'est bien.
Super forum avec beaucoup beaucoup de personnes qui ont des connaissances avancées sur pas mal de domaines.
Mon futur travail va être de trouver une relation dureté/peinture tempilaq.
Si j'y arrive plus de soucis, il suffira d'acheter les températures had oc et de tester.
Moi je suis du sud-ouest natif des pyrénées.
Bonne journée
Patrice
Hello,
So I'm not the only French here. It's good.
Great forum with a lot of people who have advanced knowledge in a lot of areas.
My future job will be to find a hardness / tempilaq painting relationship.
If I have no more worries, it will suffice to buy the had oc temperatures and test the cases
I am from the southwest. Was born in the Pyrenees.
Have a good day
Patrice

 

[Patrice COTTES]

Kiwis are good blokes. I'm not surprised he responded.

Good stuff. Probably the best caliber for you to focus on would be 308 Win given its popularity. I look forward to the Tempilaq tests.

For sure they are good blokes. Very serious company, If I had got the money I'd have bought an amp machine.
Very efficient, easy to use, small size, lightweight, all those qualities have a cost
Tempilaq paint should arrive soon. It was supposed to be sent on march 3rd.
Regarding calibers, 308 is a good caliber for sure but for hunting in the woods at close distances, 35 whe and 9.3x62 are unbeatable, no comparison, huge stopping power.
Have a nice day

 

[Patrice COTTES]

My next test will be conducted on 308 win.

 

[NearZero]

Some builders have used a 36 volts to power the induction board. In your case the power supply is rated for 20 amps (hopefully on the 36 volt side) In my listing of parts I call for a 48 volts at 12.5 amps, which is 600 watts.
For the 36 volt power supply, 36 volts X 20 amps = 720 watts. It should work.
The 12 volts from that power supply can power the volt/amp meter. water pump. Also replacing the 110 ac volt fans with 12 volt DC fans.
Your 24 volt power supply can be used to operate the trap door solenoid. Since the 12 volt solenoid (with a 3/4"- 1" throw) is no longer available) some builders have found a 24 volt replacement.
At this point... looks good.

Gina

Hi Gina,

Thank you for your reply.

Before I came across this forum I started out with a list materials from YouTube DYI video which called for:

24V 15A 360W power supply

Induction Heating Module DC 12-36 V 20 1000W (in put terminals show 12-40V 20A)

12V water cooling reservoir and pump

12V Water cooler radiator with fan

12- 24V buck converter

He used the 24 power supply to for the induction heater and buck converter and water pump and radiator with fan was powered buck converter.

I then came across your setup which was more of what I had in mind. So I purchased the rest of the items on your list. Having little to no electrical and/or electronic experience. With that in mind, are you saying that I can use the power supply and Induction board I already have and use the rest of the materials with specifications you listed? Or is it better to get 24V 6000w power supply? Are 22 AWG wire and the fuses you listed all going to work? I did some research on my own and the part about the amps and wire gauges and fuses are what concerned me most.

One last thing, my water pump has a ground wire. How should I wire this? Do I connect this to the ground terminal of the 24V power supply?

Any and all assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated.

NearZero

​

 

[Gina1]

Hi Gina,

Thank you for your reply.

Before I came across this forum I started out with a list materials from YouTube DYI video which called for:

24V 15A 360W power supply

Induction Heating Module DC 12-36 V 20 1000W (in put terminals show 12-40V 20A)

12V water cooling reservoir and pump

12V Water cooler radiator with fan

12- 24V buck converter

He used the 24 power supply to for the induction heater and buck converter and water pump and radiator with fan was powered buck converter.

I then came across your setup which was more of what I had in mind. So I purchased the rest of the items on your list. Having little to no electrical and/or electronic experience. With that in mind, are you saying that I can use the power supply and Induction board I already have and use the rest of the materials with specifications you listed? Or is it better to get 24V 6000w power supply? Are 22 AWG wire and the fuses you listed all going to work? I did some research on my own and the part about the amps and wire gauges and fuses are what concerned me most.

One last thing, my water pump has a ground wire. How should I wire this? Do I connect this to the ground terminal of the 24V power supply?

Any and all assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated.

NearZero

​

Hello Near...
You are going into areas I have never gone into. You are going to use parts different than what I called out for.
So I can't give you a straight up or down answer.

(1) IF your induction power supply is 36 volts at 20 amps it may work.
(2) 22 gage is a little light, try 20.
(3) All fuses should be OK, if you were using everything called out in the original parts list. Since I do not
know the current draw on the parts your using, I can not say.
(4) Never hurts to hook up a ground wire. I'm going to assume (ass u me) that the motor for your coolant pump is 12 volt DC. Power comes from your buck power supply. Hence it is already isolated from from your incoming AC power. So there is a very low possibility of the motor becoming "hot" to ground
. and shocking you.

Best advice I can offer you, since you have almost almost no experience in electronics, find a friend that has electronics experience to help you. As I said you are going into areas, with parts I am unfamiliar with.
Good luck with your build.
Gina

 

[Ajnova75]

Some pictures of my almost complete annealer. Only a few final things needed a resistor for the led and plug for the power station remote sensing system.