Could not source a 36V 20A power supply. Decided to purchase a 48V 12.5A power supply. I noticed that there are 48V 1800W induction heater boards with fans already attached. Is this an option or should I stick to the 1000W board?
Induction brass annealer redux
- Thread starter Gina1
- Start date
Gina,
What is size of your enclosure? (Width x Depth x Height)
My guesses based on your pictures.. It looks like your annealer is about 20-inches wide.. It looks like your plenum height for you radiator under the electronics level is about 8-inches tall.. It looks like your control panel above the plenum is about 7-inches tall. And it looks like the footprint of your electronics shelf is about 18-inches wide by 14-inches deep. Am I roughly correct on your dimensions?
Thank you
What is size of your enclosure? (Width x Depth x Height)
My guesses based on your pictures.. It looks like your annealer is about 20-inches wide.. It looks like your plenum height for you radiator under the electronics level is about 8-inches tall.. It looks like your control panel above the plenum is about 7-inches tall. And it looks like the footprint of your electronics shelf is about 18-inches wide by 14-inches deep. Am I roughly correct on your dimensions?
Thank you
Last edited:
Power=volts * current, 48*12.5=600W. Im not sure that power supply will run a 1000W board, will depend on how much current the board draws at 48V. Members generally report current around 10A but I found my 600W supply wouldnt supply 480W (ie under rated) and went larger. I would think about a larger power supply before a larger induction board.
Hello everybody.
I finally received my tempilaq paints.
As you probably know, I first conducted many test for finding the right heating program on my machine for having correct hardness. I could measure micro vickers hardness in a laboratory.
1):
I started testing with "rempilaq"1300 °F.
After annealing, no color change. I didn't reach that temperature. That means that the case was not heated up at 1300 °F
2):
I then went on 1100°F. All paint was burnt. That means that I went over that temperature on all painted surface. So for a correct annealing, I must heat up more than 110 °F.
3):
Then I painted 2 lines.
First line on left with 1100°F and then second line on right part with 1200°F.
I then annealed the 5 cases with the right program.
On the left all paint is burnt, and on the right, the paint melted till the middle of the neck.
I know for sure that this part (middle of the neck )is at the right hardness (98-99 HV)
You can see the result below.
I'd like to conduct a test with "tempilaq" 1150°F. If I can get one, I'll give it a try.
Below, the hardness that I measured on different points in laboratory. (numbers in red inside the boxes are expected values)
Regarding this caliber, the correct temperature for having a correct annealing is 1200°F. This paint melted till the middle of the neck
Remember this, caliber is 6 PPC with thin walls.
I'll return as soon as I can to university laboratory for testing micro hardness on at least another caliber. It will be 308 Win.
When I'll get the correct annealing time on this caliber, I'll conduct again tests with tempilaq.
I'll use the same temperature paints and I'll see if there's a correlation with my 6 PPC tempilaq tests.
After that I'll probably be able to have a very good idea with the use of tempilaq.
Hope my researches will help.
The 750 °F myth is killed for now!!!!!
Have a good day
Regards
Patrice
I finally received my tempilaq paints.
As you probably know, I first conducted many test for finding the right heating program on my machine for having correct hardness. I could measure micro vickers hardness in a laboratory.
1):
I started testing with "rempilaq"1300 °F.
After annealing, no color change. I didn't reach that temperature. That means that the case was not heated up at 1300 °F
2):
I then went on 1100°F. All paint was burnt. That means that I went over that temperature on all painted surface. So for a correct annealing, I must heat up more than 110 °F.
3):
Then I painted 2 lines.
First line on left with 1100°F and then second line on right part with 1200°F.
I then annealed the 5 cases with the right program.
On the left all paint is burnt, and on the right, the paint melted till the middle of the neck.
I know for sure that this part (middle of the neck )is at the right hardness (98-99 HV)
You can see the result below.
I'd like to conduct a test with "tempilaq" 1150°F. If I can get one, I'll give it a try.
Below, the hardness that I measured on different points in laboratory. (numbers in red inside the boxes are expected values)
Regarding this caliber, the correct temperature for having a correct annealing is 1200°F. This paint melted till the middle of the neck
Remember this, caliber is 6 PPC with thin walls.
I'll return as soon as I can to university laboratory for testing micro hardness on at least another caliber. It will be 308 Win.
When I'll get the correct annealing time on this caliber, I'll conduct again tests with tempilaq.
I'll use the same temperature paints and I'll see if there's a correlation with my 6 PPC tempilaq tests.
After that I'll probably be able to have a very good idea with the use of tempilaq.
Hope my researches will help.
The 750 °F myth is killed for now!!!!!
Have a good day
Regards
Patrice
Last edited:
I get the same readings using using the 600 watt, 48 volt PS.
To answer NearZero's question about using an 1800 watt ZVS induction board with 48VDC/600 watt PS....
I do not have an answer, having never used that configuration.
Maybe one of the other builders on this thread can answer the question.
Looking forward to your future results!
J’attends vos resultats futures avec la même anticipation avec laquelle La France attend Le Beaujolais Nouveau au mois de novembre
HahaLooking forward to your future results!
J’attends vos resultats futures avec la même anticipation avec laquelle La France attend Le Beaujolais Nouveau au mois de novembre
Nice to see that some AMERICAN people can speak french.
Almost as rare as French speaking English.
Your french is perfect
I appreciate your humour.
I look forward to test with 308 win. If I have enough time, I'll test also with another caliber.
Then ............ another work in preparation.
dskogman
Gold $$ Contributor
Great work! It will be very interesting to see if thicker brass acts the same.
First of all, a BIG thanks to Gina and Erick for getting this started. I am new to the forum and joined just to read this thread. I took me about two weeks to read the entire thread and this is my first post. I decided 2 months ago to start annealing my cases and after putting together a parts list for a propane build, I saw an advertisement for the AMP. I earned a B.S. in EE and worked in that industry (Novell, Inc) for a few years before pursuing a career in medicine in the mid 90s, so my EE skills are a little rusty, but I figured I could build my own induction annealer for a fraction of the cost. I had already put together parts list before reading this thread but have modified it as result of your collective experience.
I have to things I would like to contribute:
1. After doing extensive research on annealing, I have discovered that the 750 F used widely in the shooting community is not adequate. Brass (30%zinc, 70% copper) will fully anneal at 700 F if you hold that temp for 1 hour, but not for the times we are using (seconds). See this short article on annealing:
vacaero.com
Reese on the Range, a metallurgist and shooter, provides the following formula to calculate the time and temp to anneal brass:
B=1.38065x10^-23 (Boltzmann constant)
E=0.327x10^-18 (constant for the material, in this case brass)
T1 in Kelvin = 644 (700 F)
t1 in sec = 3600 (1hour)
T2 in Kelvin = target temp
t2 in sec = time to anneal
t2=t1*exp^(-E/B*(1/T1 - 1/T2))
This is easy to plug into Excel and if you pick 810.9 K (1000 F) for your target temp you will anneal in 1.88 seconds. Note that brass starts to glow between 950 F and 1050 F. Using 900 F changes the required time to 16.1 seconds.
2. Many on other sites have recommended matching the coil to the total capacitance of the annealer board. It seams that GinaErick arrived at their size by trial and error, but it can also be calculated mathematically. The coil supplied with ZVS boards run at approx. 95KHz. You can calculate the coil frequency using the following formula:
f=1/(2π√(LC)) where C = the total capacitance of the ZVS board in Farads (multiply µF by 0.000001) and
L (in Henrys)=0.000001*(N^2*D^2)/(18D+40l) where N = number of coils, D = 0.5(ID+OD) of coil and l= length of coil (use inches for length and diameter)
By designing your coil to keep the frequency around 95KHz and using the smallest possible inside diameter for your cartridge size, you will increase the efficiency of your annealer so it will run cooler and with less power. Remember that the magnetic field affecting the brass decreases by the inverse cube law (R^-3), so changing the diameter of the coil even a few mm can have a tremendous affect on the energy being transferred to the brass. If you want to focus the energy further, you can decrease the length of the coil by adding a second or third row around the first (as long as they do not touch). Obviously this changes the length and outside diameter of the coil in the formula.
I'm excited to start my build and will post updates. Again thanks to all who have shared their time and talents on this thread.
Brett
I have to things I would like to contribute:
1. After doing extensive research on annealing, I have discovered that the 750 F used widely in the shooting community is not adequate. Brass (30%zinc, 70% copper) will fully anneal at 700 F if you hold that temp for 1 hour, but not for the times we are using (seconds). See this short article on annealing:
Deformation and Annealing of Cartridge Brass
Copper and its alloys are among the most malleable metals and alloys in existence. Cartridge brass, Cu – 30% Zn, has been used for many years to produce cartridge cases for ammunition due to its superior cold forming characteristics. This article shows the microstructure and hardness of...
Reese on the Range, a metallurgist and shooter, provides the following formula to calculate the time and temp to anneal brass:
B=1.38065x10^-23 (Boltzmann constant)
E=0.327x10^-18 (constant for the material, in this case brass)
T1 in Kelvin = 644 (700 F)
t1 in sec = 3600 (1hour)
T2 in Kelvin = target temp
t2 in sec = time to anneal
t2=t1*exp^(-E/B*(1/T1 - 1/T2))
This is easy to plug into Excel and if you pick 810.9 K (1000 F) for your target temp you will anneal in 1.88 seconds. Note that brass starts to glow between 950 F and 1050 F. Using 900 F changes the required time to 16.1 seconds.
2. Many on other sites have recommended matching the coil to the total capacitance of the annealer board. It seams that GinaErick arrived at their size by trial and error, but it can also be calculated mathematically. The coil supplied with ZVS boards run at approx. 95KHz. You can calculate the coil frequency using the following formula:
f=1/(2π√(LC)) where C = the total capacitance of the ZVS board in Farads (multiply µF by 0.000001) and
L (in Henrys)=0.000001*(N^2*D^2)/(18D+40l) where N = number of coils, D = 0.5(ID+OD) of coil and l= length of coil (use inches for length and diameter)
By designing your coil to keep the frequency around 95KHz and using the smallest possible inside diameter for your cartridge size, you will increase the efficiency of your annealer so it will run cooler and with less power. Remember that the magnetic field affecting the brass decreases by the inverse cube law (R^-3), so changing the diameter of the coil even a few mm can have a tremendous affect on the energy being transferred to the brass. If you want to focus the energy further, you can decrease the length of the coil by adding a second or third row around the first (as long as they do not touch). Obviously this changes the length and outside diameter of the coil in the formula.
I'm excited to start my build and will post updates. Again thanks to all who have shared their time and talents on this thread.
Brett
I also found this information on the 1000W ZVS boards which some may find helpful:
Manual:
1. The default input voltage is DC12V~40V
The maximum input voltage is DC55V, when the input voltage is higher than DC40V, the cooling fan cannot be connected to the board, and an external power supply must be connected
source! The rated voltage of the cooling fan on the board is DC24V!
2. The maximum input current is 20A, short time is 25A, long time work is ≤15A.
3. Power:
When the input voltage is DC48V~55V, the maximum power is 1000W, and the power supply current is ≥30A.
When the input voltage is DC36V, the maximum power is 720W, and the power supply current is ≥30A.
When the input voltage is DC24V, the maximum power is 480W, and the power supply current is ≥20A.
When the input voltage is DC12V, the maximum power is 240W, and the power supply current is ≥15A.
This is a reference. Under the same voltage, it is better for the current of the power supply to be larger. The actual current is related to the actual usage.
Use a protected power supply as much as possible
4. It must be ensured that the working voltage is above 11V. Note: it is the voltage at work, that is, the coil or heating object is connected
The input voltage is not the voltage when the power supply is no-load. Use protected electricity as much as possible.
It is not recommended to use an adjustable power supply. If you must use an adjustable power supply, the voltage and current must reach the specified range!
5. The recommended input voltage range is DC24V~36V, and the recommended input voltage is DC48V~55V if the steel needs to be melted.
To melt metal, graphite crucible must be used. This board can melt iron, copper and aluminum:
About 100g of copper can be melted, and it needs to be added in portions, and it can melt about 50g at a time, and then add it after melting.
6. It must be confirmed that the wiring is correct, the positive and negative poles of the power input terminal are not reversed, and the load (ie heating coil) must be connected to reconnect.
Electricity! Be sure to connect the load and then power on, not no-load!
Do not use batteries or batteries for power supply!
7. The cooling fan must be turned on during induction heating!
A copper tube with a diameter of 10mm can be installed on the copper column at the output end, and the copper tube can be welded to the copper clip if the diameter of the copper tube is less than 4mm
Then fix the copper column with a diameter of ≤ 2mm, which can be connected to the output terminal.
It is recommended to solder the copper sheet to the copper tube, and then fix the copper sheet on the output copper pillar, so that there will be no poor contact.
Poor contact or looseness may cause instantaneous no-load, and then cause damage to some components!
8. This board can also be used to push the high-voltage package. When pushing the high-voltage package, it is recommended that the input voltage is ≤DC24V. If the voltage is too high, it is easy to damage
High-voltage package, the general high-voltage package power is less than or equal to 200W, the power is large and easy to damage! One more point, continuous arcing requires high-voltage package
Do a good job of heat dissipation, poor heat dissipation may also damage the high-voltage package.
9. Don't touch any part of the board after power on!
10. PCB board size: 181.10*88.46*1.60mm
Manual:
1. The default input voltage is DC12V~40V
The maximum input voltage is DC55V, when the input voltage is higher than DC40V, the cooling fan cannot be connected to the board, and an external power supply must be connected
source! The rated voltage of the cooling fan on the board is DC24V!
2. The maximum input current is 20A, short time is 25A, long time work is ≤15A.
3. Power:
When the input voltage is DC48V~55V, the maximum power is 1000W, and the power supply current is ≥30A.
When the input voltage is DC36V, the maximum power is 720W, and the power supply current is ≥30A.
When the input voltage is DC24V, the maximum power is 480W, and the power supply current is ≥20A.
When the input voltage is DC12V, the maximum power is 240W, and the power supply current is ≥15A.
This is a reference. Under the same voltage, it is better for the current of the power supply to be larger. The actual current is related to the actual usage.
Use a protected power supply as much as possible
4. It must be ensured that the working voltage is above 11V. Note: it is the voltage at work, that is, the coil or heating object is connected
The input voltage is not the voltage when the power supply is no-load. Use protected electricity as much as possible.
It is not recommended to use an adjustable power supply. If you must use an adjustable power supply, the voltage and current must reach the specified range!
5. The recommended input voltage range is DC24V~36V, and the recommended input voltage is DC48V~55V if the steel needs to be melted.
To melt metal, graphite crucible must be used. This board can melt iron, copper and aluminum:
About 100g of copper can be melted, and it needs to be added in portions, and it can melt about 50g at a time, and then add it after melting.
6. It must be confirmed that the wiring is correct, the positive and negative poles of the power input terminal are not reversed, and the load (ie heating coil) must be connected to reconnect.
Electricity! Be sure to connect the load and then power on, not no-load!
Do not use batteries or batteries for power supply!
7. The cooling fan must be turned on during induction heating!
A copper tube with a diameter of 10mm can be installed on the copper column at the output end, and the copper tube can be welded to the copper clip if the diameter of the copper tube is less than 4mm
Then fix the copper column with a diameter of ≤ 2mm, which can be connected to the output terminal.
It is recommended to solder the copper sheet to the copper tube, and then fix the copper sheet on the output copper pillar, so that there will be no poor contact.
Poor contact or looseness may cause instantaneous no-load, and then cause damage to some components!
8. This board can also be used to push the high-voltage package. When pushing the high-voltage package, it is recommended that the input voltage is ≤DC24V. If the voltage is too high, it is easy to damage
High-voltage package, the general high-voltage package power is less than or equal to 200W, the power is large and easy to damage! One more point, continuous arcing requires high-voltage package
Do a good job of heat dissipation, poor heat dissipation may also damage the high-voltage package.
9. Don't touch any part of the board after power on!
10. PCB board size: 181.10*88.46*1.60mm
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You have to scroll down to the customer questions. The first question is regarding the manual, and the vendor responds with the above information.
That's okay. I was able to source a 48V 1000W board.
The real questions are we really need the water circuit for our machine? Can not we simply replace the tube with a thread full of copper? it simplifies the concept enormously Indeed our machine at the base is planned for a crucible which causes it huge heat But for the use we do not do so so much heat A copper wire full of 3mm2 will be easier to work and set up what does the community think
After a few cases, be careful you don't burn yourself.
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