Good groups @100yds.

[tom]

But Tom, seriously. I know the level of tuning and experimenting you do--I live about 45 minutes from George and he's always cryptically describing what you and he are up to. So when you say you don't understand something it bothers me.............

Lol, it was a "question" to get others to think for themselves.

Tom

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

A question for the 600 yard + guys,specifically off bipod. I have heard that the vld type bullets may not produce as small of groups at 100 yards compared to the 300,600,1000 yard groups. So for a vld bullet could be 1 moa @100, but could hold 0.3@ 300+ yards due to the bullet "settling down".

 

[Erik Cortina]

A question for the 600 yard + guys,specifically off bipod. I have heard that the vld type bullets may not produce as small of groups at 100 yards compared to the 300,600,1000 yard groups. So for a vld bullet could be 1 moa @100, but could hold 0.3@ 300+ yards due to the bullet "settling down".

It’s a myth. That doesn’t happen.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Erik, thanks for the quick reply. I'm a hunter who wants to shoot as well as possible with the equipment I can afford. Since joining this site and learning how to use my reloading equipment correctly, and acquiring some good basic measuring equipment. And then making some adjustments to the way I support and handle a rifle while shooting my groups have improved. The single biggest performance adjustment I have made, learning how to tune to reduce the vertical dispersion.

 

[Bindi2]

The single biggest performance adjustment I have made, learning how to tune to reduce the vertical dispersion.

Do not remove all the vertical. You will get a group like the one Evan posted. You will not know if it is a wind shot or a barrel shot if you do.

 

[RGRobinett]

If all bullets are going through same path as defined by two points (muzzle and 100 yard target), and load has a low ES (under 20), then gun will shoot well at distance. If it doesn’t, there nothing else the rifle can do to help, so the variation must be in the bullets themselves. BC variation can cause large groups at distance even if rifle is tuned properly.

"And there, you have it"!
Many years ago, I was privy to some testing at White Sands, NM - some AMU guys were there, testing a variety of VLD bullets (the DOPPLER RADAR there could detect the bullets from muzzle to over 1K) - the BC variation was amazingly LARGE.

One of the individuals had some of his personal [.300Win. Mag.] ammo, loaded with my 187gr FB - which, in that era, were being used by several successful IBS 1K BR competitors: the BIB FB had the most uniform BC (G1 .525) of any bullet ever tested (up to that date) at White Sands, and were far more consistent than the VLD types . . . but, of what use is uniformity?

With relatively limited opportunity, those, extremely uniform, "low BC" bullets were used by competent shooters to win National Championships: Joel Pendergraft, not only won/placed/showed regularly, but also scored a 1K ten-shot group record which, assailed by thousands of opportunities, stood for right at a decade: BC uniformity remains an issue.RG

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

So with a typical "factory" bullet is the published b.c. an average to be expected or a best case number?

 

[rardoin]

Blessed are those who show up with rifles that AGG 1.50 at 600 yards.
Congratulations to y’all in advance.

KY_W suggested that should be my game plan. I'll let you know when that happens to me.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Long Time Paper target Shooter ..
In the late 80's early 90's a Service Rifle NRA 2,3&600 yards.
I worked a load for 200 yards ( clean the target it did).
That load at 300 was a waste ... Developed a 300 yard load ( cleaned the Target and Won Trophy at Camp Perry Double Clean with 12X).
Those loads would not work in reverse ????

I read somewhere years ago BT Bullets don't start to work till after 200 yards ????
I test at 200 and 300 yards, group size and SD my guide.

With this as my loading style I have been in the Winner Circle more than once at 70 + .
I shot a lot of Palma Matches over the years Placed in a couple Regional's Made HM
Cleaned the 8,9&100 Target at times ,Never shot a 450 ..... 448's a few.

If a small group at 100 yards is guide for good groups at longer Distances ??

Then Small Groups at 200 & 300 are What ??

 

[KY_Windage]

Hera ya go Kentucky...

This load shoots about .5-.6" at 100yds...nice round group for 5 shots (no target photos). The target below is at 600yds, same load, 10 shots/1 sighter. Tom touched on positive compensation and it is the reason I want to do final tune at the distance I will be competing at.

Is there some point you are trying to make? ONE TARGET tells you very little. I have seen inaccurate rifle/ammo combos shoot amazing groups, only to never be able to repeat anything close to that again.

Your original post implied that whether a rifle/combo shoots very well at 100 has nothing to do with how it will shoot at 600, and that is bunk, unless you are shooting an inappropriate bullet, of course.

Yes, we all want setups that shoot .25 at 600, but for most people getting to a 600-yd range is a pain, and catching a flat-calm day is difficult. If you're shooting in a breeze at 600 it is impossible to tell how truly accurate your setup is. However, I can shoot in a fair amount of breeze at 100 and still learn a lot about how good that setup is.

When I get very small groups at 100 I know I am going to do well at 600.

 

[rebs]

Thankfully he's already shared his thoughts and his whole process. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

Thank you

 

[rardoin]

Is there some point you are trying to make? ONE TARGET tells you very little. I have seen inaccurate rifle/ammo combos shoot amazing groups, only to never be able to repeat anything close to that again.

Your original post implied that whether a rifle/combo shoots very well at 100 has nothing to do with how it will shoot at 600, and that is bunk, unless you are shooting an inappropriate bullet, of course.

Yes, we all want setups that shoot .25 at 600, but for most people getting to a 600-yd range is a pain, and catching a flat-calm day is difficult. If you're shooting in a breeze at 600 it is impossible to tell how truly accurate your setup is. However, I can shoot in a fair amount of breeze at 100 and still learn a lot about how good that setup is.

When I get very small groups at 100 I know I am going to do well at 600.

Ok.... The point I am making is that a load that shoots very tiny groups at 100yds does not always shoot correspondingly small at 600 or greater yards and that loads that shoot a little larger than I would ideally like can shoot very well at distance. I don't like a 'one hole' group at 100yds...they have never shot as well for me at distance as one with a little vertical at 100. That is all I am saying based on my experience. I am not here to argue. See you at the range.

 

[rmr]

when our local 3gun club was shooting a lot of "long" range: 4-5-600yards, i was looking for a cheap LR bullet that would do it all. round counts in 3gun is high.. it isn't unusual to burn 150-200rds rifle only on a club match, and most of the shooting is point blank: less than 25y. the problem becomes the LR stages. switching ammo mid stage takes time and lost time = lost matches, but i can't afford to shoot .30cpr bullets at 25y targets.

i was trying to get the 75G PPU bullet to work at 600y, because i they were dirt cheap and i had a ton of them. it was grouping fine at 100, 3/4", at 300 it was 6", and at 600y hitting a std IPSC was iffy (18") I'm not sure what the issue with the bullet was, but man it was terrible past 300. it was most certainly a problem with the bullet itself.. i switched to the 73g berger, (everything else remaining the same) and was immediately shooting 4 to 6" groups at 600 with a 18" AR. (keep in mind this is 3gun, moa is good enough for that game)

 

[Ranger188]

As Eric C. stated, environmental conditions plus bullet B.C. and quality of that bullet
will all help or hurt the groups at a farther distance.
Pretty simple, isn't it.

 

[johara1]

It is called a cone of dispersion, bullet quality and barrel quality really show up at longer ranges. .... Tuning at 100 under controlled conditions, .1 or or less repeatable groups with single digits ES. will shoot at 600 and 1000 ...... jim

 

[INTJ]

It is called a cone of dispersion, bullet quality and barrel quality really show up at longer ranges. .... Tuning at 100 under controlled conditions, .1 or or less repeatable groups with single digits ES. will shoot at 600 and 1000 ...... jim

I really like that term "cone of dispersion". I think it can help people understand what happens at longer distances with various bullet's. It seems to me that generally, lower BC bullets have a larger cone if dispersion than higher BC bullet's. Therefore, to shoot well at long range, lower BC bullets must shoot smaller short range groups that higher BC bullets.

 

[johara1]

I really like that term "cone of dispersion". I think it can help people understand what happens at longer distances with various bullet's. It seems to me that generally, lower BC bullets have a larger cone if dispersion than higher BC bullet's. Therefore, to shoot well at long range, lower BC bullets must shoot smaller short range groups that higher BC bullets.

Time of flight, high BC. bullets hold speed better and have less time to be pushed around by the wind. I don't know about shooting smaller at 100, the heavies will repeat in the zeros. It is two different type of rifles and it is hard to beat a PPC or a 30 BR. up close, but is hard for them to keep up past 300 yds. .... jim

 

[Erik Cortina]

I really like that term "cone of dispersion". I think it can help people understand what happens at longer distances with various bullet's. It seems to me that generally, lower BC bullets have a larger cone if dispersion than higher BC bullet's. Therefore, to shoot well at long range, lower BC bullets must shoot smaller short range groups that higher BC bullets.

BC has nothing to do with the “cone”. In identical wind conditions, they would all fly the same path.

 

[SPQR70AD]

I can assure you of one thing- groups do not get smaller at distance. If its shitty at 100 dont expect it to magically get good farther out. So if you cant shoot real good ones at 100 youre not going to suddenly shoot good ones at distance where the other effects come into play.

I remember hearing that some long bullets made for long range do not stabilize until around 200 yds. When I first started using .22 75 gr Amax bullets my groups were better at 200 yds then 100 yds just like when the author tested his

 

[Ccrider]

It is called a cone of dispersion, bullet quality and barrel quality really show up at longer ranges. .... Tuning at 100 under controlled conditions, .1 or or less repeatable groups with single digits ES. will shoot at 600 and 1000 ...... jim

How many guns shoot repeatedly .1 or less (.0s) groups? Or is this just hypothetically to make the point?