That was my point. The only evidence I have seen of better MOA at long range vs short was that, and I suspect my example in a LR BR gun is going to be as good as it gets.
Good groups @100yds.
- Thread starter Ranger188
- Start date
That was my point. The only evidence I have seen of better MOA at long range vs short was that, and I suspect my example in a LR BR gun is going to be as good as it gets.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I meant moa. So if you got a gun that shoots a smaller moa at distance than shorter ranges you can make a lot of money. So 1moa at 200 but 1/2moa at 600= winner. 1moa at 600 but 1/2moa at 1000= winner. Bunches and bunches of posts on this subject where he lays out the challenge, lots of guys can do it but nobody has actually done it.
While the experience I posted shows a smaller MOA at longer range, I'll bet his challenge is that you have to do it where your shoot one group short range then another at long range right after. That's almost a sure thing for the guy offering the challenge.......
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
He has it designed to where its not a fluke or coincidence. Nobody will get lucky but if your gun actually does it i promise he will gladly pay you because he really wants to see one. Hes not out to move the goalposts or put up smoke and mirrors- if your gun shoots a smaller moa at distance than closer he truly wants you to show him and all of your expenses will be paid for the vacation to prove it. No trickery or gotchas- its just a simple challenge. No trick tuning on your gun to shoot bad close up then tune it to shoot small at distance its just a simple challenge
I am not challenging his motives, but I don't think it can be done. Like I said, I'll bet my .35 MOA 1000 yd group would have had a .35 MOA 100 yd group had there been a 100 yd sonic target.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Thats not really going with the “sleeping bullet” theory lots prescribe to. You know when a gun cant shoot better than 1moa at 100 and the guy says “just back up” so the out of control bullet has time to straighten up and act right, then get on the same path as the last crazy one. Thats what hes wanting to see. .35moa at both distances sounds legit- its the 1moa to 1/2moa sleeping bullet everybody wants to see.
You are a 100% right I would bet. No-one on this thread has mentioned the temp. and how it affects the load. Real world temperature testing with the gun and loads at the current temperature and find the points that the load goes out of tune. The guy that does is usually at the top of the game...... jim
tom
Gold $$ Contributor
I have a few more questions.
How many of you have ever had to tweak the powder, and or seating, and or tuner when you went from your 100 yard tune to 1,000 yards? Like on a practice day before a match, or during the sighter period?
How many of you 1,000 yard shooters have attempted to tune at both short distance, and also long in your careers to help draw your conclusions from? If yes, how did you fair, competitively both ways?
How many have had a gun shooting incredible at 1,000, and dropped down immediately and fired a group at 100 just to see what it looked like?
For those that have been successful going from let's say 100, to then competitive at 1,000. AND ANSWERED NO to the above questions..... What has been the ratio of great barrels to tomato stakes over your career?
Okay, that's enough questions from me for now. I know what I've done and seen. But then again I shoot like 1,000 times more than I make internet posts. Just wondering where everyone is drawing their expertise and conclusions from.
Tom
How many of you have ever had to tweak the powder, and or seating, and or tuner when you went from your 100 yard tune to 1,000 yards? Like on a practice day before a match, or during the sighter period?
How many of you 1,000 yard shooters have attempted to tune at both short distance, and also long in your careers to help draw your conclusions from? If yes, how did you fair, competitively both ways?
How many have had a gun shooting incredible at 1,000, and dropped down immediately and fired a group at 100 just to see what it looked like?
For those that have been successful going from let's say 100, to then competitive at 1,000. AND ANSWERED NO to the above questions..... What has been the ratio of great barrels to tomato stakes over your career?
Okay, that's enough questions from me for now. I know what I've done and seen. But then again I shoot like 1,000 times more than I make internet posts. Just wondering where everyone is drawing their expertise and conclusions from.
Tom
tom
Gold $$ Contributor
No doubt about it Jim. In a lot of ways I was very blessed to get my start here. 2008 I show up Thursday afternoon, and Friday morning guys are all shooting, running in their trailers and shooting again. I would have to ask Leo, but I think most of the 1,000 yard shooters have loaded at the range here since the beginning.
This virus thing might have saved our agg season in hindsight! This would have been an interesting weekend to try and keep up with it. It was mid 60's yesterday (Friday), and today is 30s and dropping as the 30-50 mph winds bring the snow. Tomorrow morning is supposed to be in the low teens and clear. It would have probably been one of those "multiple loads in the box" weekends!
Tom
I haven’t been competing as long as most of you guys, but have had some good success averaging towards the top of the pack. I do initial tune at 100. Then go to 1000 for final tweaks. I do it this way simply because I can tune at 100yards 15 minutes from my house. When I get the tune where I want it at 1000, I take if back to 100 and compare everything to my initial tune at 100 to see what I can learn. I then try to test the load at various temperatures to see where it goes in and out of tune so I know what to adjust through the season to stay in tune. The tricky matches are the ones that it is in the 50s in the first relay Then 70s to 80s midday when it’s shoot-off time. Those matches I’ll have 2 or 3 different powder incriminates to shoot throughout the day. The use of a tuner on my LG last year also helped me keep my vertical small on those big temp swing days.
Every barrel I’ve had chambered except one would shoot small enough to win except one and I removed it and moved on. I also do not own a chronograph and to this point haven’t had reason to. I guess it’s a tool I don’t know how or why I would incorporate into my system.
Brandon
Done that, except short range is now 200 yds for me.
Done that
Never
I have been successful going from 100/200 to 1000. I haven't had a bad barrel and don't think I have had a great one either.
When the range isn't closed I spend a lot more time at the range and at matches than on the forum too.
Evidence of the "go to sleep" theory isn't disproved because a rifle can't consistently have a significantly better MOA at long range than short.
Where I think the "go to sleep" theory might have merit is in describing how a lower BC bullet in a 6 BRA has to shoot almost twice as tight at 200 yds to shoot well at 1000 as does a higher BC bullet in a 300 WSM.
Or am I the only one that has seen that?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
If that was the case then a 300wsm should beat a bra in the accuracy dept.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
A scientific theory can never be proven true; it can only be disproven. The best one can ever hope for is to generate a solid and extensive data set that fully supports their hypothesis. At that point they will usually begin to accept the theory as valid, although most will acknowledge it still hasn't been proven to be true. To date, I recall seeing at least two cases where some kind of a bet has been announced for anyone that can provide solid evidence to support the "bullet going to sleep" theory. As far as I know, no one has ever collected. That doesn't necessarily disprove the theory, but it doesn't provide any support for it, either. I think the best approach regarding that theory would be to hypothesize it cannot happen. The evidence to disprove the theory would then be to conclusively demonstrate under rigorously controlled conditions that, in fact, it can and does happen.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I started shooting 1k about 10 years ago. I started tuning at 1k almost immediately. Surprisingly the method I finally settled on was quite similar to others I had never met or spoke to before. I dont know how many thousandths of rounds I have shot tuning at 1k, but I feel if for no other reason, there are just some things learned from shooting that distance, that much, that you just cant learn other than doing it. I have returned to 100yd tuning many times and have always ended up having to make adjustments at 1k, so I just start there. Anymore, I do not shoot at any other distance. One thing I have found, and this applies to hunting rifles in my case, since I tune my br rifles for 1k, is that if the max distance I want to shoot with that rifle is mid range, I am perfectly happy to tune it at 100. I am not sure of the reason but my thoughts are the trajectory at 1k is 2.5 times that of 600 and my thinking is that the effects of that trajectory dont really start to show up until you get out there a little farther. I will never be convinced that you can shoot 1's at 1k on the regular basis they are being shot today without some help from positive compensation. Since PC is distance specific, I dont know how you could achieve the full benefit without tuning at the intended yardage. That said, I do think you can be competitive with a 100yd tune. Guys do it all the time. I just think they are leaving a little bit on the table. And before you pile on with examples of someone shooting small with a 100yd tune, I have seen the smallest 10 shot group ever shot at 1k form in the pits from a 100yd tune. There are exceptions to everything, Im basing my opinion from as wide a view across as many successful shooters as I can, not just locally. Specifically guys that agg well or win consistently with multiple barrels or rifles. I feel like Im pretty open minded, and am always learning, but this is probably the one thing that I have seen most consistent since I stated shooting 1k. If you have access to 1K, its worth at least giving it a try. Realize its different and there will be a learning curve. But once you do it a bit, you will start to understand how to read the targets and how the conditions are effecting what your doing, and you can get some very solid data, even when its not ideal weather. But like most things you will get out what you put in.
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Alex, to many variables that you can't see at a 1000 to give you true evaluation. Yes, Tom did beat my agg. after all these years. Mine agg. was shot with two groups that were used when the rifle came apart totally unglued with a hand tight rear guard screw holding it together and after I repaired it I shot it in at a 100 yds and went to VA. match the next month and it agged. 2.83 for four matches so I would say a 100 yd tune is as good as anything out there if you know how to read it ... jim
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Jim, Im not trying argue about it or change minds. Im just sharing my experience in this game as a whole which includes tuning results from a lot of guys all over. Another point I was trying to make is to try it before forming an opinion. We have no issues getting the tune with all those variables. And I was not talking about that agg or any in particular. Theres guys that come really close to breaking aggs that you never hear of too, and they do it consistently, barrel after barrel. We all have different ideas on what to look at for data, me I look at consistency, year after year barrel after barrel. Like my aggs, I did it once, with one barrel, and one lot of bullets, I dont look at what I did as a rule. But when a guy can win with every barrel, he has got to be doing something right? Like I said, I am basing this on as many successful guys as I have knowledge of, thats including the guys like you that have the opposite opinion.
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Jim and Alex In my way of thinking 1000 yards is the only way I get results. I usually shot at 200 yards with a very tight ten shot groups and low E.S. and it sucked when I shot it when I took it to P.A. and shot at 1000 yards. So let me say this the Temperature, Barometric pressure, Altitude difference may be a big factor in all this. My best way is a ladder test at 1000 yards. That is why I only tune at 1000.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
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