FTR shooters at Raton?
- Thread starter broncman
- Start date
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Not so much sensitive as exasperated. We address this issue time and time again and always we get new shooters saying essentially what you just said.
F-TR means F-Class Target Rifle. It is in fact the genesis of the discipline when the eponymous George Farquharson petitioned the DCRA to add a bipod and a scope to the Target Rifle he had been using in Fullbore completion so he could continue to compete in spite of advancing age and failing eyesight. F-Open, AKA belly benchrest, came later.
You will also get a clue when you notice that all F-class shooting is done with one round load and that the vast majority of F-TR rifles are decidedly not "tactical", whatever that means. They are Target Rifle.
When the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also issued a new set of targets for F-class, which takes away the advantage of the bipod and scope. They also made the classification levels a little harder for the F-Class shooters. I personally have been hovering near the Master level for LR for a few years now, just not being able to put two matches above the 96.5% level required for Master. We shoot 1000 yards exclusively at our club.
I came close to doing it in Raton, but my 1244 in the FCNC works out to 95.7%, just 0.8% shy of the 96.5% needed.
As for your challenge, what of it? If you come to our club for a match, I will happily squad you in F-class even with your sling and coat and you can tell me all about it.
Every one has good days and bad days. During the FCNC, I was having a series of good days. Just to give you an appreciation of the difference; if I had been shooting on your target, the regular LR-1 target, I would have been clean on day 1, day 2 and the first of 2 matches on day 3. By that I mean that I had not shot a single round for record that was less than a 9, which makes them all 10s on an LR-1. On the last match of the last day, during the high winds and the intermittent rain, I shot a 7 ( your 8 ) and two 8s ( your 9 ). My total score superimposed on your target would have been 1296 out of 1300 with a shipload of Xs, all at 1000 yards. As the kids are fond of saying these days: "Just sayin'."
(BTW, we have HM sling shooters at the club who can match this with their non-FTR rifles, or come close to it, so this is nothing special. It was meant for you to get an idea of the level you need to be at with your sling shooting to make your wild challenges.)
F-TR means F-Class Target Rifle. It is in fact the genesis of the discipline when the eponymous George Farquharson petitioned the DCRA to add a bipod and a scope to the Target Rifle he had been using in Fullbore completion so he could continue to compete in spite of advancing age and failing eyesight. F-Open, AKA belly benchrest, came later.
You will also get a clue when you notice that all F-class shooting is done with one round load and that the vast majority of F-TR rifles are decidedly not "tactical", whatever that means. They are Target Rifle.
When the NRA sanctioned the discipline in 2007, they also issued a new set of targets for F-class, which takes away the advantage of the bipod and scope. They also made the classification levels a little harder for the F-Class shooters. I personally have been hovering near the Master level for LR for a few years now, just not being able to put two matches above the 96.5% level required for Master. We shoot 1000 yards exclusively at our club.
I came close to doing it in Raton, but my 1244 in the FCNC works out to 95.7%, just 0.8% shy of the 96.5% needed.
As for your challenge, what of it? If you come to our club for a match, I will happily squad you in F-class even with your sling and coat and you can tell me all about it.
Every one has good days and bad days. During the FCNC, I was having a series of good days. Just to give you an appreciation of the difference; if I had been shooting on your target, the regular LR-1 target, I would have been clean on day 1, day 2 and the first of 2 matches on day 3. By that I mean that I had not shot a single round for record that was less than a 9, which makes them all 10s on an LR-1. On the last match of the last day, during the high winds and the intermittent rain, I shot a 7 ( your 8 ) and two 8s ( your 9 ). My total score superimposed on your target would have been 1296 out of 1300 with a shipload of Xs, all at 1000 yards. As the kids are fond of saying these days: "Just sayin'."
(BTW, we have HM sling shooters at the club who can match this with their non-FTR rifles, or come close to it, so this is nothing special. It was meant for you to get an idea of the level you need to be at with your sling shooting to make your wild challenges.)
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
broncman said:But can you outshoot 80% of the FTR shooters using FTR equipment
Lets not turn this thread into a F vs Sling thread. This does no goood for our sport.....
I like the challenge the 308,223 brings!
Ken
Exactly right. Each discipline should be judged in its own environment and that's how we do it. I've shot fullbore, Palma, Service Rifle (sling) in the past, and I know how difficult that is. We have several HM sling shooters at our club and I am always in awe of their skills.
We have several HM F-open shooters at our club and they also do very well at the big matches and it's always fun to see them do so well.
We do not have any Masters in F-TR, but we do have several Experts and we have a lot of fun.
So many things left to interpretation and also if they are really enforced.....
Is the 2" wider rule when bipod is at it's height for a given distance OR from the bipod at it's widest position?
Also seen some videos of guys shooting "free recoil" in F Open. Rule says it must be shouldered
Also do they really check whether the feet on rests aren't into the ground more than 2"?
FTR is 308/223/5.56 UNMODIFIED. What do they consider modified?
Is the 2" wider rule when bipod is at it's height for a given distance OR from the bipod at it's widest position?
Also seen some videos of guys shooting "free recoil" in F Open. Rule says it must be shouldered
Also do they really check whether the feet on rests aren't into the ground more than 2"?
FTR is 308/223/5.56 UNMODIFIED. What do they consider modified?
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
.308 AI or .223 AI, for example. Anything you do to change the capacity or other characteristics of the cases.
hmmm.. seen some posting their FTR rigs with 223 AI. So that would be against the rules then?
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
wolley said:
Sure Wes. Are you sure you want to be squadded shooting sling with the F-class shooters during the Club Championship?
Now that I figured out who wolley is, it should be fun. He is one of our very good sling shooters.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
savageshooter86 said:
Correct.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Yeah, it's going to be in the 40s to start, with an east wind all day (we shoot due north,) and it's going to be fun. No mirage to help with the wind, it will all be flags.
See you Sunday and good luck with that Minnesotan.
See you Sunday and good luck with that Minnesotan.
savageshooter86 said:
The board rule applies to the feet location DURING the match. So as you adjust the bipod, the board must also change IF the feet move beyond being 1" to the board edge.
The whole must be shouldered thing is a "mess" but you are right on that rule.
For the Worlds in 2017, the ammo will have to pass a chamber check die which is made to the specs as outlined in the ICFRA rules. I am sure clarity and dimensions will be offered from the event organisers in time. The rules state that the 308 and 223 must be SAAMI and CIP spec. Likely if there are any dimension that is "larger", that will be favored.
Yes, you can easily "improve" either case without sounding visual alarm bells. The gains are small but it is possible. Having this chamber test and randomly testing ammo ensures this type of gaming is limited.
While at Raton for the USFCN and Worlds, I never saw any ref judging a rifle. Most of it is hard to do on a consistent basis.
The most rule breakage was simply a TOWEL Many shooters put towels over their rifle while shooting to keep all that grit out of their actions. By the rules, the action cannot be obscured from view at any time. Also, the rifle weight must include anything that is attached to the rifle during the relay so those big towels have to be added to the overall rifle weight.
I am sure many rifles are close enough to max weight that the towel would have pushed them over.
Did anyone think about this? Did anyone complain?
I am focusing on my wind reading skills cause you can never game that.
Jerry
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
mysticplayer said:
Huh? What are you talking about here? I've never observed anyone shooting with a towel over their action? Then again, I didn't see every shooter.
I use a small towel to keep the sweat running down from my face onto the stock. It's factored into the weight of my setup.
Actually there were several rifles weighed in with towels and clear plastic with velcro added(rain cover).
Lou and I weighed in about 300 rifles Saturday(Helping Larry out :^) )
But yes, There were also plenty of people using towels over there stock/cheek piece that did not weigh them.
I put one over my scope while in the ready/prep time, but it came off when I loaded.
Back to the subject at hand, there is a huge variation in mats/boards for bipods everywhere you go. It seems it is up to the match director.
One match I went to recently one guy had what looked like his door mat nailed to a piece of wood that had to be 2" thick overall.
Lou and I weighed in about 300 rifles Saturday(Helping Larry out :^) )
But yes, There were also plenty of people using towels over there stock/cheek piece that did not weigh them.
I put one over my scope while in the ready/prep time, but it came off when I loaded.
Back to the subject at hand, there is a huge variation in mats/boards for bipods everywhere you go. It seems it is up to the match director.
One match I went to recently one guy had what looked like his door mat nailed to a piece of wood that had to be 2" thick overall.
Barry,
I owe you and Lou big time. Thanks for the help.
This thread has covered a good number of issues, but one I would like to address is classifications for F-Open and F/TR.
Shooters come to matches for a number of reasons and going home with something; money, prizes and, medals are a big part of it. It is nice when a person can go home or work and say "look what I won today". It helps keep shooters coming back to matches.
The US classification system however is an artificial system to distribute prizes/awards. Its only real reason for existing is to help keep more shooters coming to matches. Let's face it most of you have heard of "life time marksmen" and there is nothing wrong with shooters who don't care to improve their scores or can't for one reason or another. A major factor keeping people coming to matches is the social aspect. In fact the social aspect is the one which keeps my wife and me traveling to matches.
But, let's face it....the only real winners in a match are the guys with the highest score regardless of his/her "classification", age or sex.
When I started shooting FC in 1999 there was no F/TR or F-Open. We shot what we had and had a lot of fun. I had a 6BR and a $20 front rest and no bipod so that is what I used and no one ever bad mouthed me because I didn't use a bipod. Competition was tuff even with the different rests. In fact, at the 2002 World Championships over 30 people cleaned the 700 meter target (a big one) with all V's one day. The long and short of it is at the end of the 66 shot shoot off (all V's) the guy shooting off a rest was first and a guy shooting off a bipod was second and the difference between the rests was never mentioned.
Now since the advent of the 1/2 moa target in 2007 things have changed a good bit. While it would be nice to have separate classifications for Open and F/TR I don't think the NRA will separate them any time soon. I wish they would so this bickering would end. At the same time the mid-range classifications % needs to be raised a bunch. Way too many HM's.
US shooters should realize most other countries shooting F-Class have no classification systems at all. Everyone is lumped in to one pot for each sub-discipline when it comes to prizes. Are there more Open high masters? Heck yes, as there should be based on the targets and %'s.
Is it easier to win a match, heck no! All the Open shooters shoot together and all the F/TR's shoot against is each other. What the heck is the problem?
When I go to a match I go to shoot the best I can and if I happen to shoot better than everyone else, great. If not, tomorrow is another day. If the people complaining about not enough HM's in F/TR would think for a moment they might realize it doesn't mean a darn thing. Except perhaps to their ego. They want to be called HM's. And I don't blame them, but don't hold it against the F/O shooters.
When the HM break points for long range were set up the intent was to make High Master be an elite classification with very few ever making the grade. However the competition has forced competitors to work harder on their equipment and techniques to win and the wining scores have increased for both disciplines. I feel the percentage should be moved even higher than 98% for Open if possible. 98% should stay the same for F/TR so it would continue to be an elite level reached by few exceptional people.
Oh! BTW, there is no "easy side".
Larry Bartholome
I owe you and Lou big time. Thanks for the help.
This thread has covered a good number of issues, but one I would like to address is classifications for F-Open and F/TR.
Shooters come to matches for a number of reasons and going home with something; money, prizes and, medals are a big part of it. It is nice when a person can go home or work and say "look what I won today". It helps keep shooters coming back to matches.
The US classification system however is an artificial system to distribute prizes/awards. Its only real reason for existing is to help keep more shooters coming to matches. Let's face it most of you have heard of "life time marksmen" and there is nothing wrong with shooters who don't care to improve their scores or can't for one reason or another. A major factor keeping people coming to matches is the social aspect. In fact the social aspect is the one which keeps my wife and me traveling to matches.
But, let's face it....the only real winners in a match are the guys with the highest score regardless of his/her "classification", age or sex.
When I started shooting FC in 1999 there was no F/TR or F-Open. We shot what we had and had a lot of fun. I had a 6BR and a $20 front rest and no bipod so that is what I used and no one ever bad mouthed me because I didn't use a bipod. Competition was tuff even with the different rests. In fact, at the 2002 World Championships over 30 people cleaned the 700 meter target (a big one) with all V's one day. The long and short of it is at the end of the 66 shot shoot off (all V's) the guy shooting off a rest was first and a guy shooting off a bipod was second and the difference between the rests was never mentioned.
Now since the advent of the 1/2 moa target in 2007 things have changed a good bit. While it would be nice to have separate classifications for Open and F/TR I don't think the NRA will separate them any time soon. I wish they would so this bickering would end. At the same time the mid-range classifications % needs to be raised a bunch. Way too many HM's.
US shooters should realize most other countries shooting F-Class have no classification systems at all. Everyone is lumped in to one pot for each sub-discipline when it comes to prizes. Are there more Open high masters? Heck yes, as there should be based on the targets and %'s.
Is it easier to win a match, heck no! All the Open shooters shoot together and all the F/TR's shoot against is each other. What the heck is the problem?
When I go to a match I go to shoot the best I can and if I happen to shoot better than everyone else, great. If not, tomorrow is another day. If the people complaining about not enough HM's in F/TR would think for a moment they might realize it doesn't mean a darn thing. Except perhaps to their ego. They want to be called HM's. And I don't blame them, but don't hold it against the F/O shooters.
When the HM break points for long range were set up the intent was to make High Master be an elite classification with very few ever making the grade. However the competition has forced competitors to work harder on their equipment and techniques to win and the wining scores have increased for both disciplines. I feel the percentage should be moved even higher than 98% for Open if possible. 98% should stay the same for F/TR so it would continue to be an elite level reached by few exceptional people.
Oh! BTW, there is no "easy side".
Larry Bartholome
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
I don't remember anyone on this thread "bickering" about the classifications and wanting to have separate classifications for F-Open and F-TR.
I, for one, am quite happy with the way things are and I hope to reach Master shooting F-TR at some point. I have no delusions about reaching HM at long range, especially since we only shoot 1000 yards anymore. But I'm fine with that because I only compete against other F-TR shooters.
What I, and a few others, took exception to was the concept that F-TR was the bastard read-headed stepchild, everyman's entry level, cheap junk rickety way of getting into F-class.
I, for one, am quite happy with the way things are and I hope to reach Master shooting F-TR at some point. I have no delusions about reaching HM at long range, especially since we only shoot 1000 yards anymore. But I'm fine with that because I only compete against other F-TR shooters.
What I, and a few others, took exception to was the concept that F-TR was the bastard read-headed stepchild, everyman's entry level, cheap junk rickety way of getting into F-class.
Larry, you don't owe me anything. I was happy to help. If anything I owe you another thanks for putting it all together.
I made numerous new friends and came away with an experience I will remember for ever. I shot my best and worst scores ever.....all in the same day.
Also a little $$$
Now back to the subject at hand........
I shoot F open......FTR is to f'n hard
I made numerous new friends and came away with an experience I will remember for ever. I shot my best and worst scores ever.....all in the same day.
Also a little $$$
Now back to the subject at hand........
I shoot F open......FTR is to f'n hard
Good Morning,
I normally shoot F/TR and have slowly moved up the ranks to make Master. My last two 600 yard scores in F/TR were 588 & 585, so I am close to making HM in F/TR.
At the last shoot, I shot my Dasher because I had some brass to fireform for my BR rig. I ended up shooting a 596/30X with the dasher, which now gives me a HM classification. I agree with the classification in Open, but don't agree with it in TR. Oh well it is what it is. Don't think it will change anytime soon, although I agree with some of the other posters that it should be two seperate classifications.......
Ken
I normally shoot F/TR and have slowly moved up the ranks to make Master. My last two 600 yard scores in F/TR were 588 & 585, so I am close to making HM in F/TR.
At the last shoot, I shot my Dasher because I had some brass to fireform for my BR rig. I ended up shooting a 596/30X with the dasher, which now gives me a HM classification. I agree with the classification in Open, but don't agree with it in TR. Oh well it is what it is. Don't think it will change anytime soon, although I agree with some of the other posters that it should be two seperate classifications.......
Ken
Then you read it wrong.bayou shooter said:
What I really should have said is this.
Todays bipod is no longer a bipod. It is a rest.
I still strongly believe that F/TR is there as a less expensive alternative to F-open. Even though it was also the ancestor of F-open.
F/TR is damn hard and it takes more skill than F-open.
The gap is narrowing with the latest bi-pods(if you can even still call them that)
There will always be the caliber limitation to deal with.
I have watched the progression of bipod technology over the last few years and am now seeing F/TR rifles tracking almost as well as the F-open rigs.
I don't want to see another "tactical" class created to limit the equipment race.
For Pete's sake, are we all comfy with the new joy-stick equipped bipods? Can you in good conscience call that a bipod?
Or maybe the Tactical class is the best option?
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
No Wes, I didn't read it wrong; in fact I got it exactly right. You and I disagree on the concept of F-TR.
The equipment aspect will always and forever be part of any competition and at the highest levels, while the equipment will not replace skill it will damn well enhance it and it's part of the game.
You say that a bipod should be limited to something with folding legs. Fine, how long do you think it would take for someone to come out with something like my Sinclair bipod you hate so much, but that has folding legs? It would also cost an extra $100 or maybe more. What was achieved here?
Some people have talked about limiting the 308 bullets to, (take your pick,) 155, 185, 200, 210, or no limit. I say no limit, and I shoot 180s and have no reason to change.
Some people have talked about limiting barrel length. I don't agree. I shoot a 32 inch barrel and I have a 34 inch on order. Because of the weight, I have to play with the contour.
Some people are unhappy about the weight limit; it's currently at 8.25 kilos (18.18 pounds). I say leave it alone and enforce the crap out of it.
I like few rules, but I like them enforced. Right now the discussion here was about boards underneath bipods. I actually believe these should not be allowed, but at the moment I do not care. I do not believe it gives any one an undue advantage over my flexible pad and is probably detrimental to many competitors. I do feel however, that the rules are not properly enforced with respect to those pads and that's going to create an issue at some point.
The equipment aspect will always and forever be part of any competition and at the highest levels, while the equipment will not replace skill it will damn well enhance it and it's part of the game.
You say that a bipod should be limited to something with folding legs. Fine, how long do you think it would take for someone to come out with something like my Sinclair bipod you hate so much, but that has folding legs? It would also cost an extra $100 or maybe more. What was achieved here?
Some people have talked about limiting the 308 bullets to, (take your pick,) 155, 185, 200, 210, or no limit. I say no limit, and I shoot 180s and have no reason to change.
Some people have talked about limiting barrel length. I don't agree. I shoot a 32 inch barrel and I have a 34 inch on order. Because of the weight, I have to play with the contour.
Some people are unhappy about the weight limit; it's currently at 8.25 kilos (18.18 pounds). I say leave it alone and enforce the crap out of it.
I like few rules, but I like them enforced. Right now the discussion here was about boards underneath bipods. I actually believe these should not be allowed, but at the moment I do not care. I do not believe it gives any one an undue advantage over my flexible pad and is probably detrimental to many competitors. I do feel however, that the rules are not properly enforced with respect to those pads and that's going to create an issue at some point.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.