FTR shooters at Raton?

[broncman]

While perusing and reading as much about the worlds recently in Raton, I noticed a lot of the FTR shooters using a board under their bipod.

How closely was the width rule applied? It looks like a lot were pretty wide. Is the width measured at shooting height because the bipod width decreases as height increases with some bipods. Looked like the gravel makes some type of a board a necessity.

 

[mysticplayer]

I never heard of any disputes regarding boards. Yes, there were certainly some that visually made you go "huh".

Personally, I used a flexible "board" so it was not affected by the rules.

Yes, the dimensions of the board are with the bipod in use. So yes, if you change the bipod footprint, the board dimensions must also follow suit.

This applies to rigid boards like plywood or sheets of alum, etc.

Flexible supports like floor mats, carpet, and shooting mat have no restrictions.

Jerry

 

[XTR]

I never heard of any disputes regarding boards. Yes, there were certainly some that visually made you go "huh".

Personally, I used a flexible "board" so it was not affected by the rules.

Yes, the dimensions of the board are with the bipod in use. So yes, if you change the bipod footprint, the board dimensions must also follow suit.

This applies to rigid boards like plywood or sheets of alum, etc.

Flexible supports like floor mats, carpet, and shooting mat have no restrictions.

Jerry

Jerry, there is a change to the regulations regarding boards that was published this yr. There is a reasonable interpretation of that rule that boards are limited to 24x12x1/2. Then again someone may hold it to the 2" wider rule.

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_hpr_13.pdf


The firing positions at Raton point down. I was warned (by another competitor) about excavating for my rear bag trying to get on target with my Sinclair all the way up. (I was pointing into the dirt at 900 yards with my Sinclair fully extended. That evening I went into the hardware store in Raton and got some old flooring display panels and a saw and cut them to size in the motel parking lot to get some buildup.

I didn't see anyone checked for board demins, but I did hear that someone got protested for having their Center Shot bipod (or one like it) dialed down till the wheel touched.

 

[gaboon]

Does the board rule affect the open rests too?

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

There were many people that were not within the new rules. I saw 2" thick boards, 1/2 boards with carpet on top and many over 24" inches.

 

[Steve Blair]

Does the board rule affect the open rests too?

[br]
Why would you put a front rest on a board? In any case, there is another rule that applies to front rests. Look in 3.4.1(a) in the first link and at the end of the second link. [br]
http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-book.pdf
http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_hpr_13.pdf

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Put me down as an F-TR shooter who eschews the use of a board for the bipod.

I actually think they should be outlawed because it goes against the tenor of the sport and definitely because the rules are not enforced with respect to their size.

I have always used a thin rubber mat with any sled type bipod and more recently I have started using a slightly thicker yet slicker, flexible mat to good success.

 

[XTR]

Put me down as an F-TR shooter who eschews the use of a board for the bipod.

I actually think they should be outlawed because it goes against the tenor of the sport and definitely because the rules are not enforced with respect to their size.

I have always used a thin rubber mat with any sled type bipod and more recently I have started using a slightly thicker yet slicker, flexible mat to good success.

Denys, in most cases I'd agree. I use an Edgewood bag with handle, the firing points at Raton were graded such that on several of my positions I could not get onto the targets at 1000 without backing up to the point of unreasonable (getting the muzzle behind the firing line is not reasonable, esp to the guy next to you). For the first couple of days I was working my rear bag down into the dirt about 1/4 to 1/2 inch, after I was cautioned that I could be DQd I went and got boards.

The issue for the shooter then becomes if you use boards in one place, then you should use them everywhere to be consistent. Which is what I've started doing. I use at least one (I was stacking two half inch boards at Raton) with the flap from my mat and a thin piece of door mat over it. I never used them before Raton this yr. I only used the thin mat to coger the flap on my matt. I don't think they make much difference one way or the other at other ranges, but there is a difference rigidity in my Sinclair an inch or more down from the top of the legs vs perched all the way to the top.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Wade, understood. The firing points in Raton are less than satisfactory. Ok, they suck. There, I said it. I also was usually near the top of my Sinclair and like you, I do not like being right at the top as it does get somewhat loosy-goosy.

I was glad that I had been using my extra thick pad several months back and with a combination of rubber mat, shooting pad and so on, I was able to get the rifle set properly. It was still higher than I liked, but that didn't create problems for me. I'm actually looking for a lower rear bag than my current Protektor. I would like a long flat one, but I can't find one.

 

[mysticplayer]

XTR, it gets kind of silly as there is one part that allows for shooters to use material to "level" their firing point then this plate rule which limits to 1/2 thick on rigid boards and plates. Gets to be a potential FUBAR with what constitutes a this or that. Likely why no ref bothered to enforce as it just ends up in a mess with no real gains to the sport.

on the link by Steve Blair, surf down to pages 68 onward to see the rules on front rests for both open and FTR.

For FTR, see page 69 - 3.4.1 (b) (2) and (5) - Tell me this doesn't open up a big can of WTF.

How do you tell a competitor that is sloping downhill, they can't level their shooting spot when another shooter a few targets over is lying pretty? Of course not it is allowed in the rules BUT ....... then the 24X12X1/2" board rule is in direct conflict with this.

Ideally, the firing points will be graded so that this would not even be a concern BUT..... another big mess waiting to be discussed

ICFRA is so much easier WRT to under rest supports. hopefully, NRA will see fit to adopt it so that this headache is gone regardless of where you compete.

Leg flex is a way too common problem with many bipods when legs are extended. I just made longer legs for the MPOD and that has resolved this issue.

bayou shooter, give edgewood a shout on custom made bags. I see that they now can do so much more and I am thinking of having a custom bag made for my new stocks but need to get one fabbed up to confirm dimensions.

Jerry

 

[Jdne5b]

... more recently I have started using a slightly thicker yet slicker, flexible mat to good success.

What are you using now?

 

[mysticplayer]

Anyone know what the NRA interpretation of a "flat board or plate" really means?

Jerry

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

... more recently I have started using a slightly thicker yet slicker, flexible mat to good success.

What are you using now?

This was my setup during the practice in Raton. Note the height of the legs. This was the flattest firing point I was on all week. It should be pointed out that George Tubb Range at Whittington has the target line noticeably elevated above the firing line. I'm thinking it was about 3-5% up angle.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j95m3jj0d7knqox/DSC_0911.JPG

 

[wolley]

I know how to solve all of this.
Restrict FTR to a folding bi-pod. Need more height? Use a different model Bi-pod with longer legs.
Rule book should have a photograph of a Harris Bi-pod with a simple statement, "if it doesn't look like this and the legs don't fold then it is not legal."
FTR was supposed to be the everyman's entry level version. What the heck happened?
;D

Wes

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Please point me to ANYTHING in the rulebook or the history of F-Class that says anything about F-TR supposedly being "everyman's entry level version."

That thinking is incorrect on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Steve Blair]

Please point me to ANYTHING in the rulebook or the history of F-Class that says anything about F-TR supposedly being "everyman's entry level version."

That thinking is incorrect on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

[br]
It's the collectivist, revisionist vision. And, everyone will get a medal.

 

[broncman]

ENTRY LEVEL ?????

Pure bs plain and simple....maybe from an expense side but FTR is the toughest discipline of the two.....PERIOD!

Show me someone who can make high master solely in FTR and I will show you someone that can freakin shoot! Deffinitely not entry level.....

I can afford F Open .... But one day saying I can post high scores with a 308 vs a 7 or 6.5 means I did not go the "easy route"....

My only regret is not living close enough to a home range and learning the palma style sling and coat first....

Ken

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I'm guessing that our misguided wolley is navigating under the misapprehension that because F-TR doesn't use the shiny power-driven chrome-plated GPS-localized battery-operated laser-leveled gyro-stabilized USB-connected Bluetooth-enabled joystick-actuated self-centering front rests favored by the F-openers, the F-TR rifles don't cost much and anyone can use old Betsy in the corner of the safe to compete and win.

At the recent FCNC, not a single F-TR shooter shot a High Master score, which would have been 1274. The highest score was a fantastic 1270 shot by Derek Rodgers. A Master score needed a minimum of 1255 and that was reached by only 11 F-TR shooters.

On the easy side (F-Open), 14 shooters shot a High Master score and 63 shooters shot a Master score. The high score was a great 1283 shot by Larry Bartholome.

There were about 200 shooters in each discipline; so about 30% of the F-Openers shot a Master score and 7% shot HM compared to about 6-7% of the F-TR shooters shooting Master and none shooting HM.

Entry level?

 

[XTR]

I know how to solve all of this.
Restrict FTR to a folding bi-pod. Need more height? Use a different model Bi-pod with longer legs.
Rule book should have a photograph of a Harris Bi-pod with a simple statement, "if it doesn't look like this and the legs don't fold then it is not legal."
FTR was supposed to be the everyman's entry level version. What the heck happened?
;D

Wes

Back when I went through Navy Nuclear Power School in Orlando the instructors would write GCE over an answer like this, it stood for Gross Conceptual Error. An answer like that usually added about 5 hours a week to your mandatory study hours.

 

[wolley]

Crud fuzzy. You guys are sensitive bunch!
My "Gross Conceptual Error" comes from the fairly common, and apparently wrong, understanding that the TR stands for tactical rifle.
Quite a few gun writers over the years have also stated that F/TR was the less expensive option for shooting F-Class.
Yes FTR is hard. I tried it and found it to be very frustrating. I saw right away that I couldn't be competitive shooting from a real Bipod and buying and using one of the 24" wide skeletonized monstrosities was too close to F-open for my tastes.
I now shoot sling and hold my own rifle. And I guarantee I can outshoot 80% of the local F-TR crowd on their own target using slings and irons.
Sounds like a challenge Denys.