First time out with a 6 BR Ackley

[jamesdmock]

According to Tony Boyer, Jack Neary, and other short range BR shooters, to find ideal seating depth one should look for a depth that will , not only shoot small, but will shoot at the same position on the target...WITH a mild load, a moderate load, and a hot load. This may or may not be applicable to 1000 yard shooting, but it is worth a try. Good shooting....,.James

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Oh I am sure there have been, just not side by side. A direct comparison. There is a reason why the 6Br conintues to dominate (even though i am not one of those guys that believes it is not the guy doing the shooting that dominates -with whatever equipment he chooses).

I just keep looking at these ladder that .002" means the difference between .2" groups and 2" groups on either side. That is crazy unstable. I would sure hate to work in that process at work... Your life would be miserable. It is not gradual at all just it is either awesome or crap, and .002 of seating depth determines the crap, and we haven't even factored in about a dozen other variables yet which add to the instability.

If I were outside looking in I would be looking for stability and predictability.

Just wondering if the 6Br with R15 is more stable and predictable, and maybe that is why it continues to win.

Its been a while since I have seen a 6br on the 1k line. Things are different at 1k. Nodes narrow up. Heres a seating depth test from a customer on his new 6BRA. It was shot at 550yds. You are not going to find a nice wide node that will shoot 2" at 1k. You will find a wide node to shoot 5-6", but thats not considered in tune for these things.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Does anyone know if a guy can get into the deep creek range? I may be in Missoula this Saturday ... so I was thinking of renewing my membership with Dan and doing a few tests at 1k

Well, if your gonna be there stop in and let us know! lol Tom needs to get down there and do some testing!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

According to Tony Boyer, Jack Neary, and other short range BR shooters, to find ideal seating depth one should look for a depth that will , not only shoot small, but will shoot at the same position on the target...WITH a mild load, a moderate load, and a hot load. This may or may not be applicable to 1000 yard shooting, but it is worth a try. Good shooting....,.James

James, it would be an interesting test. Basically we need to shoot 3 ladders of seating depths with 3 powder charges. Will be tougher to do at 1k and will take a bit more shooting but something could be learned. Dont want to pick an out of tune charge either of the ladder could get really unreadable. I do look for poi stability in my seating ladders now, but its over the same powder charge.

 

[blaster50]

Well, if your gonna be there stop in and let us know! lol Tom needs to get down there and do some testing!

Yes, I Will! Ill take a look at the weather and let you know. I'm going to try to have maybe 3ish ladders to test and possibly 15-20ish rds of long seated ammo to play with after I see what the ladders do. That would actually be great if there were a few of us there, that way I could let my wife head into town and take care of the errands she needs to attend to while I play at the range!

 

[urbanrifleman]

Its been a while since I have seen a 6br on the 1k line. Things are different at 1k. Nodes narrow up. Heres a seating depth test from a customer on his new 6BRA. It was shot at 550yds. You are not going to find a nice wide node that will shoot 2" at 1k. You will find a wide node to shoot 5-6", but thats not considered in tune for these things.

Very cool. I really do want to discuss these tests but I just want you to realize they are discussions, not conclusions about 1K shooting or anyone's expertise (or who wins etc etc). I am genuinely interested.

I am not a 1K shooter. I have no resume or pedigree in shooting. I am a nobody in shooting. I do however have a Six Sigma Black Belt in process analysis and troubleshooting and have been a mechanical engineer working in manufacturing and automation for two decades, and I just have to say these tests are totally inconclusive by any statistical measure. Not enough data points. No process controls. Too many variables. No way to determine capability of any part of the process. And certainly does not even include conditions.... which is by far the most outcome effective portion of the analysis. Other than it does appear the process is totally out of control.

One or two data points are not a trend. I suppose it is the nature of the beast. To do real testing the barrel would be shot out. But to do a cartridge caparison one would need to do head to head multiple data point testing to prove capability. There are statistical tools out there to solve problems exactly like these, and they do work. Six Sigma has computer programs for testing exactly like this.

 

[blaster50]

Very cool. I really do want to discuss these tests but I just want you to realize they are discussions, not conclusions about 1K shooting or anyone's expertise (or who wins etc etc). I am genuinely interested.

I am not a 1K shooter. I have no resume or pedigree in shooting. I am a nobody in shooting. I do however have a Six Sigma Black Belt in process analysis and troubleshooting and have been a mechanical engineer working in manufacturing and automation for two decades, and I just have to say these tests are totally inconclusive by any statistical measure. Not enough data points. No process controls. Too many variables. No way to determine capability of any part of the process. And certainly does not even include conditions.... which is by far the most outcome effective portion of the analysis. Other than it does appear the process is totally out of control.

One or two data points are not a trend. I suppose it is the nature of the beast. To do real testing the barrel would be shot out. But to do a cartridge caparison one would need to do head to head multiple data point testing to prove capability. There are statistical tools out there to solve problems exactly like these, and they do work. Six Sigma has computer programs for testing exactly like this.

It's nice to have a fellow mechanical engineer in the room

 

[urbanrifleman]

It's nice to have a fellow mechanical engineer in the room

My name is Brad too... hahaha

 

[urbanrifleman]

Again, I am in no way being argumentative, but how is a data test of one conclusive? Maybe if you did it twenty times and showed a trend you could say you have established that the variable is the cause, but a data set of one means absolutely nothing in testing of processes.

 

[22DASHER]

Again, I am in no way being argumentative, but how is a data test of one conclusive? Maybe if you did it twenty times and showed a trend you could say you have established that the variable is the cause, but a data set of one means absolutely nothing in testing of processes.

It’s obviously not conclusive and never would be in the shooting world. But no one in their right mind is going to test them that much. These top shooters know their rifles better then anyone. They really know what works from barrel to barrel to barrel and look for the same trends that way they can save components, barrel life and money. Who gives a damn about statistics...If it shoots small it shoots small.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Again, I am in no way being argumentative, but how is a data test of one conclusive? Maybe if you did it twenty times and showed a trend you could say you have established that the variable is the cause, but a data set of one means absolutely nothing in testing of processes.

There is no practical way to demonstrate small differences in grouping with p values that are required in science and engineering. Talented, experienced shooters extract useful information from every shot, and apply knowledge accumulated over thousands of rounds and dozens of barrels in different conditions to make judgment calls and informed guesses.

In the end, the proof is in the shooting. Tom has set several world records, and you haven't, so who do you think we're paying attention to?

 

[blaster50]

It can apply to us too, below is a .002" change per "color" 1000 yard "ladder".

View attachment 1032805


James "B", deep creek 1000 is open Monday and Fridays, daylight until noon. If the 1k isn't in use by 9 a.m. they reopen the rest and close the 1k. Helps to call Dan in advance so he don't shit himself when you fire it up at first light!

Tom

Good point Tom lol... I'll give him a call...

 

[blaster50]

Often a tune evolves and changes as a barrel ages and the throat wears. If a guy is lucky, the relationship between bullet jump/jam will continue similar trends... but not always! For this very reason, I typically try (if i can) to get to the range a day before the match to just verify seating depth NEAR the last place I knew the gun to be "in tune"... it helps to have a plan B tune if it's not lol. Flexibility with a portable hand loading setup can become important.
It becomes a juggling act... A guy wants to test and validate and retest and validated while trying not to shoot out the throat and possibly the tune at that point in a barrels life. I just need to hit the lotto so I can have an unlimited supply of barrels and components.... also get rid of this "work thing"... then I could REALLY get some tuning done

 

[urbanrifleman]

It becomes a juggling act... A guy wants to test and validate and retest and validated while trying not to shoot out the throat and possibly the tune at that point in a barrels life. I just need to hit the lotto so I can have an unlimited supply of barrels and components.... also get rid of this "work thing"... then I could REALLY get some tuning done

QUOTE OF THE DAY!!!

 

[MTlager]

Does anyone know if a guy can get into the deep creek range? I may be in Missoula this Saturday ... so I was thinking of renewing my membership with Dan and doing a few tests at 1k

James,
Monday and Friday are normally the 1000 yard days so have to check with Dan. If shooters on the other ranges it will be a no go .

Lonnie

 

[blaster50]

James,
Monday and Friday are normally the 1000 yard days so have to check with Dan. If shooters on the other ranges it will be a no go .

Lonnie

Thanks Lonnie! I'm thinking about what I have to do before Saturday anyway ... unfortunately I don't see a lot of loading time available... I have every other Friday off so Friday the 26th may be better. Is the 1k range closed right off the bat on Saturdays to open the others?... or is the 1k available before 9am on Saturday?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Again, I am in no way being argumentative, but how is a data test of one conclusive? Maybe if you did it twenty times and showed a trend you could say you have established that the variable is the cause, but a data set of one means absolutely nothing in testing of processes.

We have done it way more than twenty times and are still learning how to extract new data from a ladder. So much more to them than the obvious. Eventually you will get good enough at shooting them and reading them that the small samples are plenty. Most problems with ladders are from shooting in poor conditions or with a rifle that's not accurate.

 

[Northridge]

QUOTE OF THE DAY!!!

"he or she who best at juggling win" Alex hit the nail on the head, this small sample to the un- trained eye may seem short sided at best but to some who has implemented similar steps with previous barrels will quickly see or not the similarity or tendencies with in a platform enough to move out and find tune of previous data. what this sample told me was this barrel shows frequency change as ladder was performed on all targets in a way that will be capitalized on at 1000 yards. this may sound strange but I do not like to see barrels that have a broad tuning band up close 300 to 400 yards, those barrels for me do not have a frequency that is sharp enough to see barrel compensation further out. they will be your half moa wonders.

James has the set up to find the balance between vertical and horizontal stringing at 1000 yards on H4895 as his target has illustrated.

Shawn Williams

 

[blaster50]

Well, if your gonna be there stop in and let us know! lol Tom needs to get down there and do some testing!

After talking to Lonnie, I think I'm going to wait till next Friday. I don't want to upset Dan lol

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Take him some frozen snake to get on his good side.

Tom

I almost forgot about that. @Torge was about in tears LOL!