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6 Dasher and Varget - First time out

now, when you say you cannot get them to shoot, what do you mean?

bad vertical, flyers, groups in +3/8" groups?

I only have 94 rounds through the barrel and it looked like it was starting to shoot in the 2's and some groups in the 1's for 3-shot groups. This to me seems promising.
 
I shot a 6SLR for a long time that would never shoot the hybrids as accurately as the 115's or 107's for 600 f-class. Jumped on the Dasher wagon with a .135fb and fireformed 250 pieces with 30.5 of Varget, some old Rem 7 1/2 BR's and some old Berger 108's. (Tried the 105's no luck so far) Used the false shoulder, seated tight & about 5 thou. off and that fireform load shoots tiny!! 2785', single digit ES out of a 30" 1:8. Used it in a f-class match for a 991-52x. Shot some once fired the last relay and that produced a 199-16X. I'll second the comment that the 2nd firing is outstanding. Don't have any brass with 3 firings on them yet. Might just keep fireforming! LOL Working on the higher node and it appears to be around 32.2 of Varget with 450's. Any higher and the groups open up. Good Luck, Eric in DL
 
I Have noticed that most of the guys that seem to be shooting lower powder charges are using 450 primers. In other guns I have noticed as much as a half grain or more between magnum primers and regulars. I have also noticed I can run more powder in my Broughton Barrels. The Kriegers seem to be tighter or something. I know most of the guys shooting at Williamsport are shooting 34 or so of Varget. I have shot 34.2 with no pressure but it shot better at 34 flat. Most guys using the .155 freebore rechamber their guns before 1000 rounds. In most guns accuracy falls off where you can't win in BR anymore. Some rechamber at 500 rounds. In 1000 yard BR the difference between winning and losing can be 1/4 inch or less for 10 shots. It's not that the barrel doesn't shoot good anymore but it looses enough that it gets hard winning. I have tried the 105 Hybrids and could not get them to shot anywhere near as good as a VLD at 10 in the lands. I just couldn't get the vertical out with the Hybrids. I tried them from 10 in to 80 off and couldn't get them to shoot. I have also seen the same from other guns. When shooting 10 shots for record they always wanted to throw a shot or two out of the group. On most days if conditions are decent you need to be able to shoot 10 shots in 4 to five inch range at 1000. In our game group and score both count but group takes precedence. Matt
 
bsumoba said:
now, when you say you cannot get them to shoot, what do you mean?

bad vertical, flyers, groups in +3/8" groups?

I only have 94 rounds through the barrel and it looked like it was starting to shoot in the 2's and some groups in the 1's for 3-shot groups. This to me seems promising.

Bryan, once you believe you have a good load, try this: Go out to 600 yards (1000 is better but you may not be near a 1000 yard range) and shoot 5+ / 5 shot groups. With VLD's and even the 108 Berger (which I think is a GREAT bullet) under excellent conditions (which means little or no wind and NO heat waves) you should be able to get inside 2 inches and under 1.5" is not out of the question. I have yet to be able to get the Hybrids to shoot like a VLD. The groups size will be readily apparent.

I am fortunate to live close to a 1000 yard range. ALL my "final" testing is done at 1000 yards. I have seen groups get HORRIBLE vertical at 1000 and shoot GREAT from 600 yards and closer. However, I have NEVER seen GREAT groups at 1000 fail inside that range.
 
Agree, Ive had some great 100yd groups in load testing for my old dasher, but going back to long range they just dont hold in there. Happily changed to JLK's and now have a brand new replacement 6BR barrel screwed on ready to run in and work a load for.
 
ShootDots said:
bsumoba said:
now, when you say you cannot get them to shoot, what do you mean?

bad vertical, flyers, groups in +3/8" groups?

I only have 94 rounds through the barrel and it looked like it was starting to shoot in the 2's and some groups in the 1's for 3-shot groups. This to me seems promising.

Bryan, once you believe you have a good load, try this: Go out to 600 yards (1000 is better but you may not be near a 1000 yard range) and shoot 5+ / 5 shot groups. With VLD's and even the 108 Berger (which I think is a GREAT bullet) under excellent conditions (which means little or no wind and NO heat waves) you should be able to get inside 2 inches and under 1.5" is not out of the question. I have yet to be able to get the Hybrids to shoot like a VLD. The groups size will be readily apparent.

I am fortunate to live close to a 1000 yard range. ALL my "final" testing is done at 1000 yards. I have seen groups get HORRIBLE vertical at 1000 and shoot GREAT from 600 yards and closer. However, I have NEVER seen GREAT groups at 1000 fail inside that range.
Ben I have also seen the same thing. In most guns it seems the 108 is easier to tune but if you get the VLD working it shoots smaller. I also think it does slightly better in wind. Some of my best 100 yard loads have been my worst at 1000. I have had loads that shot ES of 3 to 5 and shot extremely small 5 shot groups at 100 and they just fell apart at 1000. I can't see how people figure 100 yard groups out because my guns don't seem to show much, especially vertical. Like I said I had extremely small 100 yard groups show up as 13 to 16 inches at 1000. Maybe that is why people think the Hybrid is so good. They just didn't shoot in my guns or in a lot of other guys guns. I did see them shoot good in one gun. Maybe it is a twist thing because most of the guys are running an 8 twist. Matt
 
I know of 1 guy who shoots the Hybrids pretty good but I also know a bunch of guys who have given up on them. I get terrible vertical with them at 1000. They will shoot great at 300yd but at 1000 I'll get 10" of vertical. Mine isn't a flyer or two like Matt's but just just a straight up and down group.
 
I see you guys are talking about the 105 VLD. Is this the Berger orange box PN# 24528 ?
This would be the original thin jacket secant ogive 105 It is now designated the (hunting) VLD
Thanks lloyd
 
dkhunt14 said:
ShootDots said:
bsumoba said:
now, when you say you cannot get them to shoot, what do you mean?

bad vertical, flyers, groups in +3/8" groups?

I only have 94 rounds through the barrel and it looked like it was starting to shoot in the 2's and some groups in the 1's for 3-shot groups. This to me seems promising.

Bryan, once you believe you have a good load, try this: Go out to 600 yards (1000 is better but you may not be near a 1000 yard range) and shoot 5+ / 5 shot groups. With VLD's and even the 108 Berger (which I think is a GREAT bullet) under excellent conditions (which means little or no wind and NO heat waves) you should be able to get inside 2 inches and under 1.5" is not out of the question. I have yet to be able to get the Hybrids to shoot like a VLD. The groups size will be readily apparent.

I am fortunate to live close to a 1000 yard range. ALL my "final" testing is done at 1000 yards. I have seen groups get HORRIBLE vertical at 1000 and shoot GREAT from 600 yards and closer. However, I have NEVER seen GREAT groups at 1000 fail inside that range.
Ben I have also seen the same thing. In most guns it seems the 108 is easier to tune but if you get the VLD working it shoots smaller. I also think it does slightly better in wind. Some of my best 100 yard loads have been my worst at 1000. I have had loads that shot ES of 3 to 5 and shot extremely small 5 shot groups at 100 and they just fell apart at 1000. I can't see how people figure 100 yard groups out because my guns don't seem to show much, especially vertical. Like I said I had extremely small 100 yard groups show up as 13 to 16 inches at 1000. Maybe that is why people think the Hybrid is so good. They just didn't shoot in my guns or in a lot of other guys guns. I did see them shoot good in one gun. Maybe it is a twist thing because most of the guys are running an 8 twist. Matt

Matt, I am NOT the best L/R shot on this terra firma. If I get 1/2 m.o.a. at 1000 FAIRLY consistently, I am ecstatic. Periodically I will get inside of that and once is a GREAT while I will get inside 3".. But for me, that is a rare feat indeed. And ALL those are shot under IDEAL conditions! Since I am not all that good out there, the 108's equal the VLD's for me. If I shot Benchrest out there in competition, over time I may see the benefit of the VLD's. But I shoot F-Open and my shooting at 1000 is more for testing loads and when we have a match, I shoot out there to get a "no-wind zero", which is important in F-Open.. So really, in the grand scheme of things, my 1000 yard game is somewhat limited. So I will cede to your opinion on the VLD's. They are excellent>>PERIOD!!
 
Yes I shoot the hunting VLD's in the orange box. I find in most lots they seem to be more consistent. I know they are capable of shooting real small. Plus if you check the top 10 at the IBS 600 yard Nationals you will see nobody in the top ten in group or score or light or heavy used a Hybrid. Matt
 
So I took out the gun with formed brass. 100 yards. again, slightly heavy mirage. I tried one round at 34.5 grains and no pressure signs.

Still the same thing...Varget with 105gr hybrids loaded 20K out with a .155 FB.

Over a 0.6gr spread, I had great results. 1 group had a pull. I am thinking of trying right in the middle of this, at 33.7gr. best group at 33.8gr @ 0.166 MOA. I did not show 33 or 33.2gr but it was bad and looks like it is out of the accuracy node. these are 3-shot groups

charge ave ES
33.4 - 3031.5 - 15 fps
33.6 - 3042.5 - 7 fps
33.8 - 3072.5 - 5 fps
34 - 3087.5 - 4 fps

20150703_150946_zpsxany9xlx.jpg
 
Notice how your vertical and ES is getting better as you go up. If you have no pressure signs at 34 I'd stay there and test at a further distance.

One pressure test I like to do is take one case and load it multiple times, just neck sizing, to see how long it takes to get too tight to chamber before needing full length sizing, and to see how the primer pocket lasts.

On one lot of powder, I ran 34.5 grains 15 times and quit, as it never did get too tight. Another time it took 11 loadings to start showing.
 
34.5 grs of Varget on Quickloads shows to be producing pressure above 70K psi. This is an extremely hot load, so just because bsumoba is shooting it, please, work your way up and don't just go load this. I'm shooting a BAT MB action and 34.5 grs will lock my bolt down ..

I suspect the guys shooting these loads have very slow lots of Varget, though I've never had a slow lot...either way, work you way ip to these loads, and be prepared to fireforme lots of brass..
 
Slightly off target but useful info anyhow, that I do as part of my break-in process. In 18 pieces of brass I can determine the following. The potential of several powders( don't forget your chronograph ;)) since I'm fireforming as we all know it takes a few firings to get everything tight and square to the chamber. I can test the best place to seat the bullet and even experiment with primers, although that is rare, all in 18 rounds. Also, I have a barrel settling regimen that I do at the same time. This system has worked on every barrel except one, and that one had an 1.50" tear in the lands according to the mfg., which the promptly replaced. I have several friends that have tried it and even though some didn't know what they were looking at, their results were in line with my expectations. What made me bring this up is "ALF" is on to two of them.
As a 4th of July gift to all the members, if you e-mail me by noon on Sunday, I will send it to you for free in Word format as a reminder of our freedom.
Thanks,
Lloyd
 
This is a good read especially since I just began working up loads for my 6 Dasher. I am shooting Varget and 105 VLD's in 8 twist krieger with a 130 free bore. I worked up to 33.4 today and didn't see any pressure signs. I had great accuracy around 32.4 and then again things were tightening up at 33.4, therefor I will be working up a little higher as well.
 
BY1983 said:
See how long your brass lasts at 34gr. At 31.8gr H4895 I started getting loose primer pockets.

What is your FB on your reamer, your bullet and are you jamming the bullet?

could be that you have a lot more pressure than I do because your FB is shorter, causing your bullet to be seated further into the case and reducing case volume, thus increasing pressure, and you are jamming, which also increases pressure.
 
125 freebore, 236 krieger and FAT hybrids that would only shoot at a 60 thou jump. Velocity was 3020fps and I would get about 8 firings per case before BR4's would be able to be seated with almost no force. Went to a slower powder and sub 3000fps just to keep cases going to what I would consider acceptable. Ended up running out of that batch of hybrids and could never get another batch to shoot.
 
I run 34.5 grains of Varget with moly plated 105 VLD's in a .104" chamber, .236" barrel, at 3070 fps. The barrel has 2100 rounds down it and the brass is on 16-17 times fired and going strong......
 

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