First time out with a 6 BR Ackley

[blaster50]

I tell you the truth though, I think this kind of testing could show a lot about the truths of tuning.
One thing I saw is that the distance very close to the lands is very constantly mediocre. I suspect it will be much better even further out. i have never understood the fascination with wanting to be very close to the lands, where every little change in the ammunition changes the fit.

 

[blaster50]

I have my first 5 shot test coming up to test at 31.1gr and 0.019 jump ... I am anticipating good things if the trend continues with what the ladders have been showing! I would be tickled if it wanted to consistently shoot small with a long jump! More to come!

 

[blaster50]

31.8gr ladder re-shot at 400yds. This is still the 1st full power load shot on the COW formed brass. Think I have some direction to go with this and my previous ladder tests. I will likely do another charge ladder test, re-confirm velocity, and verify my zero jump point as I would assume things have changed as the new barrel broke in. A few things to note... Brown and orange marker look A LOT A LIKE on bullet holes... annndd I need to get little Velcro stickers for my new barrel so I can use my mirage shield... heat waves are VERY bothersome in 20 degree weather lol.

 

[urbanrifleman]

So. .002" of bullet seating depth moves the group from 1.6" to .22" and then back to 1.3" again at the next .002"?!!!

I think you need to repeat the same test three or four times before you move on to the next variable. like

1 powder ladder
repeat
repeat
repeat

Take best powder charge

2. Coarse Seating depth ladder
repeat
repeat
repeat

and I think your seating depth movement should be much coarser (like 10 thou)

3. Fine seating depth (maybe 3 thou around test 2 value)
repeat
repeat
repeat

 

[Alex Wheeler]

So. .002" of bullet seating depth moves the group from 1.6" to .22" and then back to 1.3" again at the next .002"?!!!

I think you need to repeat the same test three or four times before you move on to the next variable. like

1 powder ladder
repeat
repeat
repeat

Take best powder charge

2. Coarse Seating depth ladder
repeat
repeat
repeat

and I think your seating depth movement should be much coarser (like 10 thou)

3. Fine seating depth (maybe 3 thou around test 2 value)
repeat
repeat
repeat

I'm guessing you have never tested seating depth in a very accurate rifle at 1k yards? .002" can be the difference in winning and mid pack. Most of the times your really good window for seating is +/- .002" Out of that window the groups will increase in vertical. I have never seen a .010" window at 1k, ever. If you cant see the difference there are other problems.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'm guessing you have never tested seating depth in a very accurate rifle at 1k yards? .002" can be the difference in winning and mid pack. Most of the times your really good window for seating is +/- .002" Out of that window the groups will increase in vertical. I have never seen a .010" window at 1k, ever. If you cant see the difference there are other problems.

I did not say that. Not even close to what I said.

Even Berger recommends a very broad INITIAL seating depth test with his VLDs. Then once that a target range has been established do a fine test around that range. Which is what I said. I never said test for ".010" window". I have no idea where you read I said that.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

.010" increments will jump right over nodes. You would need a wide node like .010" for that course of a test to be worth doing. Not to mention the seating depth and powder charges are well know on the 6 BRA, so fine tuning from the start makes sense.

 

[blaster50]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to be testing more. I certainly agree with making sure information is repeatable before drawing conclusions. I also agree with what Alex is saying above... the dasher tuned very similar with small changes in seating depth. I will likely run through my tests again once all my brass has had 2x cycles on it.

 

[urbanrifleman]

.010" increments will jump right over nodes. You would need a wide node like .010" for that course of a test to be worth doing. Not to mention the seating depth and powder charges are well know on the 6 BRA, so fine tuning from the start makes sense.

Ok fair enough if you already have another load you are copying. Considering you could go from 30 jump to 20 into on just about any load and be completely within the standard logic and practice, it would seem you would need to establish a range before fine tuning.

So tell me, how did one conclude that, after the match that .002" is what put them out of tune? And not about seven other variables? I am curious how someone would know that.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Ok fair enough if you already have another load you are copying. Considering you could go from 30 jump to 20 into on just about any load and be completely within the standard logic and practice, it would seem you would need to establish a range before fine tuning.

So tell me, how did one conclude that, after the match that .002" is what put them out of tune? And not about seven other variables? I am curious how someone would know that.

When you clean the rifle, check the throat, and realize the throat moved enough to put you out of tune. Fairly common actually. Most people that shoot LR BR have had it happen. You have to know your rifle well enough to know what it will allow. One of the benefits most dont talk about with ladders is not only can they find your tune, but they also show you where you will go out of tune and how bad.

Looking good Bradley, should be solid in March! Looking forward to seeing some small stuff this year.

 

[blaster50]

When you clean the rifle, check the throat, and realize the throat moved enough to put you out of tune. Fairly common actually. Most people that shoot LR BR have had it happen. You have to know your rifle well enough to know what it will allow. One of the benefits most dont talk about with ladders is not only can they find your tune, but they also show you where you will go out of tune and how bad.

Looking good Bradley, should be solid in March! Looking forward to seeing some small stuff this year.

Thanks Man! I'm looking forward to it! Should be a fun season... kind of excited to try a little different relay structure... for better or worse... I didn't have any problems personally with what we have been doing but it definitely makes sense to practice what we will experience at nationals! Should make for more shooting and hopefully draw some more folks to come try it out!

 

[urbanrifleman]

I would be very interested in a side side ladder analysis of the BRA with the H4895 and a 6br with R15.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I would be very interested in a side side ladder analysis of the BRA with the H4895 and a 6br with R15.

What do you want to see? Theres been a lot of those ladders shot, just not side by side.

 

[Northridge]

Looking good James, you have some good info to move further out with keep it up...

Shawn Williams

 

[blaster50]

I was liking the 31.1 jump ladder James.


Tom

It has been showing some initial signs that it may prefer ~0.02ish of jump. The barrel and brass are still very young ... but that's a lot more than I really considered tuning in for my previous dashers. I may have a slight bias towards a light jam for what we are trying to do. Thinking about it like a tapered tool holder in a milling machine or lathe... I feel there may be some aligning qualities / run out mitigation to a jam condition???? ... but I'm trying to really let the targets tell me what I need to do. More to come! Sure is fun

 

[dmoran]

I like a node about 6/10 of a grain wide at least.

I do to, or wider... from larger cartridges. Myself, never see them that wide in smaller cartridges like the 6BR/Family, where I see charge windows of 3 to 4/10 in width more normal.

I tell you the truth though, I think this kind of testing could show a lot about the truths of tuning.

One thing I saw is that the distance very close to the lands is very constantly mediocre. I suspect it will be much better even further out. i have never understood the fascination with wanting to be very close to the lands, where every little change in the ammunition changes the fit.

Myself see ammunition fit the same regardless of the seating, except from hard into the lands, where bolt closer is effecting seating depth and creating resistance to closer.
Also repeatedly have seen best accuracy to come in or near the lands (particularly with VLD type bullets), and don't really grasp why some will give up accuracy levels to be seated at a jump, from single-feed match rifles.

Individualism is dominate, and glad we do things different, or what would we have to discuss?
Donovan

 

[Tim Singleton]

.002 or .003 off on seating depth is the difference between having a chance at winning or just in the middle of the pack in SR BR as well

Alex said it as well as it can be said you have to know what your rifle is capable of.
If it's not there you keep looking for it a thousandth at a time

 

[tclaunch]

.002 or .003 off on seating depth is the difference between having a chance at winning or just in the middle of the pack in SR BR as well

Alex said it as well as it can be said you have to know what your rifle is capable of.
If it's not there you keep looking for it a thousandth at a time

So true.

 

[urbanrifleman]

What do you want to see? Theres been a lot of those ladders shot, just not side by side.

Oh I am sure there have been, just not side by side. A direct comparison. There is a reason why the 6Br conintues to dominate (even though i am not one of those guys that believes it is not the guy doing the shooting that dominates -with whatever equipment he chooses).

I just keep looking at these ladder that .002" means the difference between .2" groups and 2" groups on either side. That is crazy unstable. I would sure hate to work in that process at work... Your life would be miserable. It is not gradual at all just it is either awesome or crap, and .002 of seating depth determines the crap, and we haven't even factored in about a dozen other variables yet which add to the instability.

If I were outside looking in I would be looking for stability and predictability.

Just wondering if the 6Br with R15 is more stable and predictable, and maybe that is why it continues to win.

 

[blaster50]

Does anyone know if a guy can get into the deep creek range? I may be in Missoula this Saturday ... so I was thinking of renewing my membership with Dan and doing a few tests at 1k