Considering Three 223 Bolt Guns - Buy vs Build - Recommendations?

[grovey]

View attachment 1197999

8 twist barrel. How can you improve on this?
My 260 is my favorite rifle. Love to shoot it.

Needs more rail.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

Tikka was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the title . I just pointed a new shooter in that direction . Put a nice scope on it and he is shooting .5" at 200 yards. Not too shabby for his first rifle at age 33 years of age . I know of 3 other Tikkas that do the same or better, mine and my Son's 2 . Everywhere I read I see praise for these fine rifles .

TIKKA is off my list now that I bought one. I absolutely hate the floating lug. Some days it shoots lights out , others shotgun. And yes I have done a lot of work trying to get it to shoot consistently.

 

[argrendel]

TIKKA is off my list now that I bought one. I absolutely hate the floating lug. Some days it shoots lights out , others shotgun. And yes I have done a lot of work trying to get it to shoot consistently.

I can’t remember the last time I read or heard about someone unhappy with a Tikka. Overall, 99.9% happy Customers?
Think I would send it back.
I’ve owned three. Might own the T-1 in the near future.

 

[dolek]

I can’t remember the last time I read or heard about someone unhappy with a Tikka. Overall, 99.9% happy Customers?
Think I would send it back.
I’ve owned three. Might own the T-1 in the near future.

Same here, only issue I have ever read about was folks not positioning the lug correctly during reassembly . Not sure how that would happen,but I read it on the web somewhere.

 

[drover]

It is more of a case of improper reassembly, if one is not careful when putting the action into the stock it can set on top of the lug rather than the lug engaging the action. It is not really noticable when casually looking at the rifle but with careful observation the barrel will have a slight uphill look to it when compared to the top of the fore-end. When reassembing take care that the lug is actually mated with the action.

drover

 

[TheOtherZilla]

It is more of a case of improper reassembly, if one is not careful when putting the action into the stock it can set on top of the lug rather than the lug engaging the action. It is not really noticable when casually looking at the rifle but with careful observation the barrel will have a slight uphill look to it when compared to the top of the fore-end. When reassembing take care that the lug is actually mated with the action.

drover

Trust me. I do know how to reassemble this rifle. And I guarantee the lug is seated in the groove properly. In fact I bought an aftermarket stock thinking the tupperware was the problem. Nope.. I bought this rifle because I read so many good things about TIKKA. And yes I have several groups that are near one holers. But I also have targets using the same load that shotgun. I got it as good as I can and just moved on.

 

[drover]

That wa an informational reply to the post by onoawa. Don't be so testy, no said that you did not know how to reassemble one.

drover

 

[K22]

TIKKA is off my list now that I bought one. I absolutely hate the floating lug. Some days it shoots lights out , others shotgun. And yes I have done a lot of work trying to get it to shoot consistently.

Wow - never heard of an unhappy Tikka owner but anything is possible. I own four T3X's, a 223 Lite, 243, 308, and a 223 Varmint - all shoot great when I say great I mean in the 1/2 moa range with tailored reloads.

If you've disassembled the rifle and don't mate and seat the lug properly I imagine you could have problems.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

Wow - never heard of an unhappy Tikka owner but anything is possible. I own four T3X's, a 223 Lite, 243, 308, and a 223 Varmint - all shoot great when I say great I mean in the 1/2 moa range with tailored reloads.

If you've disassembled the rifle and don't mate and seat the lug properly I imagine you could have problems.

As I said. I do have this rifle assembled correctly. I did do my research on the proper procedure.. Anybody wants it it is up for sale.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

That wa an informational reply to the post by onoawa. Don't be so testy, no said that you did not know how to reassemble one.

drover

OK...

 

[mchees1]

See that you're open to suggestions, here goes.

ARC Nucleus action
Savage pre fit
KRG Bravo Chassis
Trigger Tech trigger.

Would be a pretty good combo for about $2000!

 

[BronzeArcher]

3) Savage 12 F/TR. Around $1280 street price. Single shot, wood stock instead of chassis, 30" barrel that is not threaded. Could get an Orys chassis for $400. Could replace barrel in the future. No idea on chamber specs but single shot should not be an issue with any bullet and oal.

Several of my students have made High Master in F-Class and a couple won national championships with this rifle. A favorite load is the 80 SMK, 23-24 grains of Varget, Lapua brass, OAL close to 2.500", match primer. The barrel is rough and needs to be cleaned every 100 rounds or so, pulling out lots of copper. But it is a shooter.

See:

 

[fyrewall]

I decided to add a .223 to my assortment. I am not a match shooter, quit that decades ago. I wanted a simple tough rifle for casual use. I settled on a used Ruger Hawkeye. Discarded everything except the action. New stock from Richards. New 9 twist, 24 inch, #4 barrel from McGowen. Minor trigger tune up, about 3 lbs. can't feel creep. Modified magazine box to handle longer OAL ammo.

Usual bullet selection is 53 VMax, 60 Sierra TMK, & 69 Barnes MB. Powder either IMR 8208 or CFE 223. Dump the powder directly into the case.

Adverse stuff is the Ruger scope mounting system but hits can be made out to 600 with Leupold 6-18X40 AR Mod1 scope (MilRad). Don't like the Ruger diagonal action screws.

Costs: Rifle (used) $500, barrel $380 (deal), stock $135. Real laminated wood. $1,015 total.

I might have the receiver drilled & tapped for 8-40 screws & some kind of Picatinny base, EGW or Murphy. $75 drill & tap, $50 - $100 base.

Hopefully, lots of cheap brass & SR Primers will be available so I can shoot up my stash of bullets and powder.

Edit: I provided McGowen a sample dummy round so they could chamber it (throat) for my intended ammo. Everything works real good with no fussing. As mentioned I modified the magazine box so it would feed (control feed) my longer COAL rounds that fit real good inside the extended magazine & throat/chamber for multiple shots at rodents. I paid about $35. for throating to McGowen.

Edit: A quick search of records found invoices for rifle, barrel & stock $1,050 total. It can shoot dime size groups at 100 and within 1 inches of center of 300 yard steel. I used left over stuff from refinishing a half round table for the stock - sandpaper & Minwax Poly Rub. Made good deal on PPU 5.56 brass from Graf, less than $17 for 50. Am also using free range brass. Necks turned for both. The group shown was shot using left over 53 VMax rodent ammo - usual 2-3 mph wind @ 10-11 o'clock.

 

[Ned Ludd]

mchees1 - when considering the choice between either building a custom rifle, or purchasing a factory setup, there are some considerations directly related to the differences between those two genres of rifles. Some have already been mentioned herein, but some reiteration is not unwarranted. In the grand scheme of things, what building a custom rifle allows you to do differently than a factory rifle is to set it up and specifically optimize it for the type shooting you intend to do. That means you can have it throated for the bullets you intend to shoot, choose the type trigger you like, pick a stock that suits you, etc. These are choices that will largely have already been made for you by the manufacturer on a factory rifle, and you will ultimately have to work within the confines of their pre-existing rifle specs. Here are a few things to consider before making your choice:

1) Trigger - Having the exact trigger I want is a big deal. I personally cannot stand the bladed Accu-trigger that comes on Savage rifles, so that is a deal breaker right out of the box for me. However, some shooters really love the Accu-trigger, so it's something you need to try for yourself before buying if you're considering going that route. If you're considering a different choice, find out what the [safe] adjustability range of the pull weight on their factory trigger is before buying, and be sure it is compatible with your intended use.

2) Chamber/throat - In a factory rifle, you really have no control over how long it will be throated. That means you may or may not be able to optimally load "heavies" (i.e. 80+ gr bullets) in factory rifle. Certainly a factory rifle can be re-barreled or throated out, but that's added effort, time, and cost that must be considered. In a custom rifle, you can have your smith chamber it any way you like, thereby optimizing the rifle for a specific weight range of bullets, if desired. FWIW - you're likely not going to be able to feed from a magazine with any bullets heavier than the 77 gr SMK, without actually modifying the magazine. Bullets of 80 gr and heavier are typically going to be single-feed only. I have a couple of custom .223 Rem F-TR rifles in which I shoot the 90 VLDs that are single feed only, and I don't find it to be an issue for target shooting at all. In fact, the rules actually specify single-feeding in a match. I also have another custom .223 rifle I had set up as a "practice/trainer" rifle that has a Badger M5 DBM setup. Once I discovered the difference in precision at 300 yd and beyond between factory 77 gr ammunition and my handloads with 80.5 Bergers, I haven't fed a single round through the mag of this rifle since. YMMV.

3) Barrel - It is not uncommon to see purchasers of production rifles to swap the original barrel out immediately for a quality aftermarket barrel, such as a Bartlein, Brux, Krieger, etc. This accomplishes several things; you will generally get a higher quality barrel, and you can specify exactly how it is chambered/throated, as well as the overall length. However, it must be considered as part of the overall cost of the rifle if you intend to do it right away.

In the grand scheme of things, you could buy one of the production Savage rifles or a Tikka and be very happy with it. Both have excellent reputations for out-of-the-box accuracy. As you mentioned, you could also start with something like a trued and blueprinted Remy 700 action from PTG, a trigger, a quality barrel, and a stock, to have a reputable gunsmith build a custom rifle to your exact specs. The difference in total cost between the two options wouldn't likely be huge if you're careful in choosing the components for the custom. I've priced such a rifle out in the past and came up with a figure fairly similar to yours, somewhere in the $1800 to $2000 range. Of course, the extra time to assemble the components and complete the build are also considerations. Just think through the decision carefully, and I'm sure you will make a choice that works out well for you, regardless of which direction you decide to go.

 

[K22]

mchees1 - when considering the choice between either building a custom rifle, or purchasing a factory setup, there are some considerations directly related to the differences between those two genres of rifles. Some have already been mentioned herein, but some reiteration is not unwarranted. In the grand scheme of things, what building a custom rifle allows you to do differently than a factory rifle is to set it up and specifically optimize it for the type shooting you intend to do. That means you can have it throated for the bullets you intend to shoot, choose the type trigger you like, pick a stock that suits you, etc. These are choices that will largely have already been made for you by the manufacturer on a factory rifle, and you will ultimately have to work within the confines of their pre-existing rifle specs. Here are a few things to consider before making your choice:

1) Trigger - Having the exact trigger I want is a big deal. I personally cannot stand the bladed Accu-trigger that comes on Savage rifles, so that is a deal breaker right out of the box for me. However, some shooters really love the Accu-trigger, so it's something you need to try for yourself before buying if you're considering going that route. If you're considering a different choice, find out what the [safe] adjustability range of the pull weight on their factory trigger is before buying, and be sure it is compatible with your intended use.

2) Chamber/throat - In a factory rifle, you really have no control over how long it will be throated. That means you may or may not be able to optimally load "heavies" (i.e. 80+ gr bullets) in factory rifle. Certainly a factory rifle can be re-barreled or throated out, but that's added effort, time, and cost that must be considered. In a custom rifle, you can have your smith chamber it any way you like, thereby optimizing the rifle for a specific weight range of bullets, if desired. FWIW - you're likely not going to be able to feed from a magazine with any bullets heavier than the 77 gr SMK, without actually modifying the magazine. Bullets of 80 gr and heavier are typically going to be single-feed only. I have a couple of custom .223 Rem F-TR rifles in which I shoot the 90 VLDs that are single feed only, and I don't find it to be an issue for target shooting at all. In fact, the rules actually specify single-feeding in a match. I also have another custom .223 rifle I had set up as a "practice/trainer" rifle that has a Badger M5 DBM setup. Once I discovered the difference in precision at 300 yd and beyond between factory 77 gr ammunition and my handloads with 80.5 Bergers, I haven't fed a single round through the mag of this rifle since. YMMV.

3) Barrel - It is not uncommon to see purchasers of production rifles to swap the original barrel out immediately for a quality aftermarket barrel, such as a Bartlein, Brux, Krieger, etc. This accomplishes several things; you will generally get a higher quality barrel, and you can specify exactly how it is chambered/throated, as well as the overall length. However, it must be considered as part of the overall cost of the rifle if you intend to do it right away.

In the grand scheme of things, you could buy one of the production Savage rifles or a Tikka and be very happy with it. Both have excellent reputations for out-of-the-box accuracy. As you mentioned, you could also start with something like a trued and blueprinted Remy 700 action from PTG, a trigger, a quality barrel, and a stock, to have a reputable gunsmith build a custom rifle to your exact specs. The difference in total cost between the two options wouldn't likely be huge if you're careful in choosing the components for the custom. I've priced such a rifle out in the past and came up with a figure fairly similar to yours, somewhere in the $1800 to $2000 range. Of course, the extra time to assemble the components and complete the build are also considerations. Just think through the decision carefully, and I'm sure you will make a choice that works out well for you, regardless of which direction you decide to go.

Intelligent advice. True confession at 73: having own numerous rifles of various brands and calibers over the past 50 years; if I had it all to do over again once I had a professional job and could afford it, I would have two or three custom rifles built to my exact specifications and would have standardized the triggers, actions, scopes, etc. The money and effort I expended on factory rifles for after market triggers, barrels, stocks, extractors, bedding, etc would have more than paid for two or three custom jobs. True I've been able to get most of those factory rifle but the costs, time, effort, and frustration could have been avoided if I was smarter. There's also the issue of standardizing triggers, stocks, etc. to promotion consistency in your shooting.

With that said, I have been lucky to have two factory rifles, out of the box without any changes that were reliable, shot sub 1/2 moa groups, and had excellent triggers, etc. A Weatherby Super Varmint Master and a Tikka T3X Varmint model, both in 223 Rem. but this was probably more luck of the draw although I have a high regard for Tikka rifles. If I was going to focus on standardizing rifle platforms with factory offerings I'd probably select this brand.

 

[Hohn]

I own several Savages. They shoot well. But I haven't shot them much since becoming violently ill after seeing the tooling marks and chatter ALL THE WAY down the bore.

Buy custom if you can afford it, Tikka or Sauer if you can't.

I just assume every Savage will need a new barrel or a final finish or something and budget that in.

 

[Indiana6547]

Highpower-FClass, NZ_Fclass, grovey, jelenko, onowa, Has Been, and argrendel, thanks for your replies and suggestions. A few new options for me. Now I just have to do a little more research to find out what max oal the various mags can handle, see if I can find info on freebore and twist rates to handle the heavy bullets. So far MPA has sent me info on AICS mags with a max cartridge length of 2.325, freebore of 0.0620, and 1:7 twist. I should be able to get a great rifle no matter which one I end up buying.
Thanks again to the great info from Accurateshooter members!

You will need a 0.090" or more freebore to handle 75 and 80 grain bullets with a twist rate no slower than 1 in 8". That rules out all the production rifles with production barrels. My MDT .223 magazines can accept a max length of 2.55". I run a 28" Criterion MTU profile with 1 in 7" twist with a freebore of 0.090". It is perfect for 75 and 80 grain bullets. It is installed on a a Savage action by myself with NSS components. I would vote for full-custom. You won't get what you are after off-the-shelf from a major manufacturer.

 

[Whisky Tahoe Foxtrot]

After shooting F class the last year, I have seemed to lose all the muscle strength in my trigger finger.
My Rem 700 VSSF in 223 12 twist was tuned to 1lb 12 oz and it seemed way too heavy!

I have a very accurate Savage model 12 in 6BR and have upgraded it as follows:
@Grimstod bolt lift kit and firing pin bushing to correct pierced primers even with factory Lapua ammo
Rifle basix trigger adjusted to 4oz but requires gingerly closing the bolt (not safe in my opinion)
Brux 29in barrel chambered in 6BR with .272 neck.
Factory barrel has been rechambered with the same reamer.
I can use the rechambered factory barrel for varminting, fireforming, and just practice
allowing me to save the Brux for matches and smallest group competitions.
The trigger is the weakest link. Stock is next.

Ok back to the Remington.
I had a 40x McMillan stock and factory 40x trigger on hand so I upgraded the Rem 700 223 as follows:
Replaced the trigger with the 40x trigger and set at 8oz.
Replaced the VSSF H&S precision stock with the 40x McMillan.
I Loaded up a range of 53grain Vmax with Benchmark & CCI-400 to find my 2021 varmint load.



So what about all the other rifle choices?
I have a pair of Sako M995 based rifles in .270 and 30-06 that I love but for really precise shooting,
I prefer a Remington clone where I can source better stocks and triggers.

My .223 will probably keep the 40x trigger but may go back in the H&S precision stock depending on if I'm shooting off a bipod or a table with a rest. It's nice having options.
Next upgrade will be a new barrel with a faster twist and ream the factory barrel with the new chamber.
It's nice having a practice barrel handy when you don't need the accuracy barrel.

1st consider the trigger in any rifle decision. 2nd consider the compatibility of the action.

Since all the advice on this forum is free, feel free to disregard it.
You can always do exactly what you want. If you post pictures, we'll still love it.

 

[searcher]

Given the high-end of your price range, you are within a few hundred dollars of being able to buy a used full-blown target rifle put together by people who are the best. First off - I really like Savages. When it comes to target rifles - they are not first-tier. That is not to say they can't shoot really well. Still - if I were in your shoes, I'd go online to the sites that resell target rifles - or even watch what is for sale on the sale forum on this site. I have seen some REALLY nice custom rifles built on BAT and other quality actions with the best of everything hanging on them at prices that were 25% to 50% off what it cost to build them. Others mentioned barrels and triggers. I have factory barrels and I have factory triggers (accu-trigger included) and I wouldn't trade any of my custom barrels or Jewell triggers for them. Personally, I'd not buy an action that I couldn't hang a Jewell or similar trigger on. If you do go forward with one of those three rifles - I'd probably go for the lowest priced Savage you listed. The actions are fair and the trigger fair. You would have enough left over to buy a quality barrel IF the Savage didn't meet your expectations. I have seen many Savages shoot pretty darned good with a good barrel.

 

[Mike Lum]

View attachment 1197999

8 twist barrel. How can you improve on this?

Yet they (Tikka) still cut the 22-250 with a 1:14