Was shooting new savage 223 f/tr 30 " barrel. Load was 23 grain varget cci 400 primer, New remington brass. Bullit was hornady 75 hpbt oal 2.356. I measured the chamber several times and this load is more then 20 off the lands. It was the final shot in the last 20 string and the barrel was pretty hot. The bolt was alittle hard to close and then pulled trigger smoke flew out of side ports and around bolt. The only wierd thing is the bullit still hit in the 8 ring at 600 yards.The rifle bolt looks ok but was wondering if the longer barrel and heat could be the cause in preasure spike? This load is a mild one. Any thoughts. The rest of the 59 pieces of brass I shot that day show nothing .? ???
New savage f/tr 223 blew a primer at match
- Thread starter mattt
- Start date
Did it hit high? Could you have accidentally had extra powder in that one? Could there have been a carbon build up? That is all I can think of.
Chip
Chip
I didnt get a chance to see if it was a high or low 8 was looking for damage to rifle
I run 24.75 grs. of Varget for the Hornady BTHP's and AMAX's, Fed. GMM primers and once fired Full lenght sized Fed. GMM brass thats been Match preped and weight sorted out of my 600 yd. rifle with as many as 80 rounds plus sighters and never blew a primer due to heat........but I'll never use Wolf Small rifle primers again, they blew at the thought of more than 23.70 grs. Varget in the same rifle.
I think maybe an over charge or maybe it was long......
I think maybe an over charge or maybe it was long......
mattt,
don't use standard small rifle primers in any .223R load that runs to worthwhile pressures - ie PMC / Wolf SR, Rem 6.5, CCI-400 etc. They use a thin (0.020") cup while all Large Rifle and Small Rifle Magnum / BR models are manufactured from thicker (0.025") brass strip. The standard primer is specified for relatively low pressure applications only having been originally designed for .22 Hornet, .218 Bee and similar that run at 45,000 psi maximum. .222 Rem is as high pressure a cartridge as they should be used in, unless very mild loads are employed.
Use the CCI-450, Fed 205GMM, Rem7.5, Wolf SR Magnum, CCI-BR4 and similar only. For some reason I've never seen explained, SR size primers are far more prone to extrude back into the bolt firing pin hole than LR equivalents. Extrude far enough and they pierce blowing a small disk of brass + a good blast of gas back into the bolt. Do this often enough and the firing pin hole is enlarged through gas erosion and the firing pin tip is likewise reduced in diameter as well as roughened - and the incidence increases, a vicious circle.
You WILL be limited loads / pressure wise to a greater or lesser extent with the Savage 12 PT action with this cartridge compared to custom single-shot target and BR actions from BAT, Stolle, Barnard, RPA etc which use smaller diameter pins that fit their bolt-holes very closely. The good news is that Savage is a heck of a lot better than Remington and Winchester in this regard. With magnum primers you may be OK with whatever load you find works for you - if it recurs though, you either have to reduce loads or have the firing pin turned down and bolt-head bushed by somebody like Gre-Tan Engineering which specialises in this job. Remember, pressures tend to be higher in hot weather, so a marginal situation now may see every primer pierce on a hot August day.
Don't worry about some primer extrusion - ie a raised ring around the firing pin indentation on the primer surface. This is virtually unavoidable with warm loads and this action on such cartridges. When it turns into a little sharp plug sticking out from inside the ring though, you're only a shade away from a pierced primer, and it'll happen sooner or later, probably sooner.
As well as risking damage to the bolt-face and firing pin tip, a pierced primer often causes misfires or erratic ignition in subsequent shots due to the disk still being inside the bolt head and stopping the pin falling fully. If you get a pierced primer, remove the bolt from the rifle, and uncock / recock it manually by pushing the little round cocking button across in the bolt body (just ahead of the bolt handle) so it falls into the triangular cutout and lets the firing pin fall under spring pressure. In my experience of the PT action, this ejects the little disk nearly every time. The hard part is recocking the bolt by pushing the button back and to one side into the cocking notch with your thumb!
Don't dry fire the rifle to get rid of the disk - it may eject it into the chamber and chambering the next cartridge may push it forward into the leade. It won't damage the barrel, but you'll likely get a 'flier' with your next shot.
However, from the description in your original post, this sounds like it may have been more than just a pierced primer. Did the primer remain in situ with a hole in the middle, or did it fall out of the case on opening the bolt? If the latter, the case-head has expanded so the pocket becomes slack and lets gas escape all around the primer. If this is what happened, there are only two possible causes:
(1) you somehow got a fair bit more powder into that charge than 23gn, or ....
(2) it was a faulty case with 'soft' brass in the case-head area that wouldn't take normal pressures. This is rare, but does happen.
23gn Varget under the 75gn Hornady is not a 'hot' load. QuickLOAD estimates 52,716 psi. My loads pan out at around 58,500 psi according to the program and one can run warmer still in an approriate action with suitable pin arrangements.
The hard chambering bit for the round is funny (funny-strange that is not funny-ha-ha) and would obviously seem to be linked to the subsequent events, but it's difficult to see how with a new case. Even if you had seated the bullet out further than the rest, and so far it was hard-seated in the lands, it shouldn't have caused any serious problem with only 23gn Varget behind this bullet. (You couldn't have got an 80gn HPBT mixed up with yoiur 75s?) Did the previous round score OK, and you don't have any other fired case missing a bit or something (thinking partial blockage of the front of the chamber)?
The 75gn Hornady 75gn HPBT is not a bullet I would choose for any shooting beyond a couple of hundred yards. You should be shooting MUCH higher BC 80s, 82s and if the rifle throat lets you, even 90s in this rifle - but if you're 20 thou' off the lands at this COAL with the 75 HPBT, it doesn't sound as if Savage have throated it optimally for even 80s, never mind inch and a quarter long 90s.
For .223R 80, 82 and 90gn long-range loads have a look at the US (Palma) Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum and use search to look for .223 Rem 90gn or Palma loads. Jerry Tierney has done a lot of testing at Sacramento with the cartridge.
Vince Bottomley and I have also written extensively about my .223 Savage PT action based custom rifle on the free online shooting magazine TargetShooter from August 2010 onwards, with handloading for the two Berger 90gn bullets following the rifle build articles. (Older issues are downloaded as Adobe PDF files from the 'Archive' section.)
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/
http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/
Whether you can use the loads that Jerry and I have used and achieve similar MVs really does depend on how Savage has throated the .223R version of the 12 F/TR rifle. The 1-7" twist rate is fine for 90s, but you do need a LOT of freebore to seat the bullets shallow in the case. My reamer had nearly a quarter-inch of freebore and when the barrel was new, a 90gn Berger VLD would hit the lands at a COAL of around 2.690" - I now run them at over 2.7" with a bit of throat wear. 80s can just be used in such a throat, but it really is a specialist one bullet form and weight rifle in this form.
Laurie,
York, England
don't use standard small rifle primers in any .223R load that runs to worthwhile pressures - ie PMC / Wolf SR, Rem 6.5, CCI-400 etc. They use a thin (0.020") cup while all Large Rifle and Small Rifle Magnum / BR models are manufactured from thicker (0.025") brass strip. The standard primer is specified for relatively low pressure applications only having been originally designed for .22 Hornet, .218 Bee and similar that run at 45,000 psi maximum. .222 Rem is as high pressure a cartridge as they should be used in, unless very mild loads are employed.
Use the CCI-450, Fed 205GMM, Rem7.5, Wolf SR Magnum, CCI-BR4 and similar only. For some reason I've never seen explained, SR size primers are far more prone to extrude back into the bolt firing pin hole than LR equivalents. Extrude far enough and they pierce blowing a small disk of brass + a good blast of gas back into the bolt. Do this often enough and the firing pin hole is enlarged through gas erosion and the firing pin tip is likewise reduced in diameter as well as roughened - and the incidence increases, a vicious circle.
You WILL be limited loads / pressure wise to a greater or lesser extent with the Savage 12 PT action with this cartridge compared to custom single-shot target and BR actions from BAT, Stolle, Barnard, RPA etc which use smaller diameter pins that fit their bolt-holes very closely. The good news is that Savage is a heck of a lot better than Remington and Winchester in this regard. With magnum primers you may be OK with whatever load you find works for you - if it recurs though, you either have to reduce loads or have the firing pin turned down and bolt-head bushed by somebody like Gre-Tan Engineering which specialises in this job. Remember, pressures tend to be higher in hot weather, so a marginal situation now may see every primer pierce on a hot August day.
Don't worry about some primer extrusion - ie a raised ring around the firing pin indentation on the primer surface. This is virtually unavoidable with warm loads and this action on such cartridges. When it turns into a little sharp plug sticking out from inside the ring though, you're only a shade away from a pierced primer, and it'll happen sooner or later, probably sooner.
As well as risking damage to the bolt-face and firing pin tip, a pierced primer often causes misfires or erratic ignition in subsequent shots due to the disk still being inside the bolt head and stopping the pin falling fully. If you get a pierced primer, remove the bolt from the rifle, and uncock / recock it manually by pushing the little round cocking button across in the bolt body (just ahead of the bolt handle) so it falls into the triangular cutout and lets the firing pin fall under spring pressure. In my experience of the PT action, this ejects the little disk nearly every time. The hard part is recocking the bolt by pushing the button back and to one side into the cocking notch with your thumb!
Don't dry fire the rifle to get rid of the disk - it may eject it into the chamber and chambering the next cartridge may push it forward into the leade. It won't damage the barrel, but you'll likely get a 'flier' with your next shot.
However, from the description in your original post, this sounds like it may have been more than just a pierced primer. Did the primer remain in situ with a hole in the middle, or did it fall out of the case on opening the bolt? If the latter, the case-head has expanded so the pocket becomes slack and lets gas escape all around the primer. If this is what happened, there are only two possible causes:
(1) you somehow got a fair bit more powder into that charge than 23gn, or ....
(2) it was a faulty case with 'soft' brass in the case-head area that wouldn't take normal pressures. This is rare, but does happen.
23gn Varget under the 75gn Hornady is not a 'hot' load. QuickLOAD estimates 52,716 psi. My loads pan out at around 58,500 psi according to the program and one can run warmer still in an approriate action with suitable pin arrangements.
The hard chambering bit for the round is funny (funny-strange that is not funny-ha-ha) and would obviously seem to be linked to the subsequent events, but it's difficult to see how with a new case. Even if you had seated the bullet out further than the rest, and so far it was hard-seated in the lands, it shouldn't have caused any serious problem with only 23gn Varget behind this bullet. (You couldn't have got an 80gn HPBT mixed up with yoiur 75s?) Did the previous round score OK, and you don't have any other fired case missing a bit or something (thinking partial blockage of the front of the chamber)?
The 75gn Hornady 75gn HPBT is not a bullet I would choose for any shooting beyond a couple of hundred yards. You should be shooting MUCH higher BC 80s, 82s and if the rifle throat lets you, even 90s in this rifle - but if you're 20 thou' off the lands at this COAL with the 75 HPBT, it doesn't sound as if Savage have throated it optimally for even 80s, never mind inch and a quarter long 90s.
For .223R 80, 82 and 90gn long-range loads have a look at the US (Palma) Rifle Teams Long-Range Shooting Forum and use search to look for .223 Rem 90gn or Palma loads. Jerry Tierney has done a lot of testing at Sacramento with the cartridge.
Vince Bottomley and I have also written extensively about my .223 Savage PT action based custom rifle on the free online shooting magazine TargetShooter from August 2010 onwards, with handloading for the two Berger 90gn bullets following the rifle build articles. (Older issues are downloaded as Adobe PDF files from the 'Archive' section.)
http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/
http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/
Whether you can use the loads that Jerry and I have used and achieve similar MVs really does depend on how Savage has throated the .223R version of the 12 F/TR rifle. The 1-7" twist rate is fine for 90s, but you do need a LOT of freebore to seat the bullets shallow in the case. My reamer had nearly a quarter-inch of freebore and when the barrel was new, a 90gn Berger VLD would hit the lands at a COAL of around 2.690" - I now run them at over 2.7" with a bit of throat wear. 80s can just be used in such a throat, but it really is a specialist one bullet form and weight rifle in this form.
Laurie,
York, England
I was at a local 600 yd match last June shooting F/TR with my .223, holding my own using CCI450 primers, 77 Noslers, H4895, Win brass.
Another chap shooting .223 was blowing primers and borrowing my cleaning rod to poke out stuck cases. His primers were piercing, converting small rifle primer pockets to large rifle.
Asked him his load and he said Varget, a mix of 80 and 82 gr bullets and Win SR primers. Told him his primers were too soft for the pressures he was running. Had to use magnum primers. He said he turned down some CCI450s at a local dealer because he is not shooting a magnum.
Too bad Stoner didn`t put a medium capacity 6mm into his M16. Instead we are trying to use a second rate varmint cartridge beyond 300 yds. But the .223 is cheap to reload.
Another chap shooting .223 was blowing primers and borrowing my cleaning rod to poke out stuck cases. His primers were piercing, converting small rifle primer pockets to large rifle.
Asked him his load and he said Varget, a mix of 80 and 82 gr bullets and Win SR primers. Told him his primers were too soft for the pressures he was running. Had to use magnum primers. He said he turned down some CCI450s at a local dealer because he is not shooting a magnum.
Too bad Stoner didn`t put a medium capacity 6mm into his M16. Instead we are trying to use a second rate varmint cartridge beyond 300 yds. But the .223 is cheap to reload.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
Matt,
Did any of the other rounds show any cratering at all? Otherwise I'd say either a loading snafu, bad piece of brass or a bad primer (it happens). 23gn Varget is, quite frankly, pretty wussy as far as competitive .223 LR loads go.
On my 12 F/TR in .223 Rem I was getting cratered primers even on what I'd consider 'starting loads', and loads that were most definitely 'safe' in my gas guns. You can go chase down all the other stuff, or send the bolt off to Greg Tannell @ Gre-Tan Rifles to get the firing pin hole bushed and the firing pin turned to fit. If you send it off USPS Priority Mail it should be back in about a week, maybe a week & a half. Definitely worth the ~$80-something it costs... if you don't need it now, you will need it later this year when it starts getting hot.
Monte
Did any of the other rounds show any cratering at all? Otherwise I'd say either a loading snafu, bad piece of brass or a bad primer (it happens). 23gn Varget is, quite frankly, pretty wussy as far as competitive .223 LR loads go.
On my 12 F/TR in .223 Rem I was getting cratered primers even on what I'd consider 'starting loads', and loads that were most definitely 'safe' in my gas guns. You can go chase down all the other stuff, or send the bolt off to Greg Tannell @ Gre-Tan Rifles to get the firing pin hole bushed and the firing pin turned to fit. If you send it off USPS Priority Mail it should be back in about a week, maybe a week & a half. Definitely worth the ~$80-something it costs... if you don't need it now, you will need it later this year when it starts getting hot.
Monte
K22..........I use Win SR primers for 50 and 55 gr loads in my .223. Hot loads. No problem. Great on varmints.
But to get the velocities needed for long range F Class shooting 600 yds and beyond with 80 gr bullets, .223 users tend to run at pressures for which the cartridge was never designed. The fast twists, typically 1-in-8, needed to stabilize the long heavy bullets would also contribute to pressure peaks.
This necessitates the use of magnum primers to handle the pressures.
Myself I have backed off my loads a bit and and now only use my .223 in 300 metre ISU competition.
But to get the velocities needed for long range F Class shooting 600 yds and beyond with 80 gr bullets, .223 users tend to run at pressures for which the cartridge was never designed. The fast twists, typically 1-in-8, needed to stabilize the long heavy bullets would also contribute to pressure peaks.
This necessitates the use of magnum primers to handle the pressures.
Myself I have backed off my loads a bit and and now only use my .223 in 300 metre ISU competition.
K22,
see James Calhoun's report on small rifle primers
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
Fed 205M cups at 0.0225" are thicker than those on ordinary SR models but not quite as thick as on magnum models. As JC points out, the manufacturer can also use very different tensile strengths on the brass sheeting used in making the cup.
I classed Fed 205Ms with CC-450s etc in my advice as they are far less prone to crater and pierce than CCI-200s, Rem 6.5s and especially the PMC (Wolf in the USA) standard model that is widely regarded as the 'worst' model on sale in this regard.
The Winchester SR was quite resistant to cratering / piercing some years back in plated 'silver' form and was recommended by Glen Zediker for Hi-Power Service Rifle AR15s. I used them for years in a manual .223R AR-15 happily. According to Zediker and others, Winchester has changed its specs since and the more recent unplated (brass colour) batches are much softer and should be avoided. I can't comment as I haven't seen any such in the UK.
Monte - are you coming over with the US F/TR team for the Creedmoor Europe v USA F-Class matches in Ireland followed by the Scotland v USA F/TR matches at Blair Atholl on 1st to 4th July? If so, we'll meet at Blair and I'll also get the opportunity to see how my Savage .223R performs at 1,100yd with 90gn VLDs. (It performed very well indeed on this range at 1,000 in a GB national league round last August.)
see James Calhoun's report on small rifle primers
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
Fed 205M cups at 0.0225" are thicker than those on ordinary SR models but not quite as thick as on magnum models. As JC points out, the manufacturer can also use very different tensile strengths on the brass sheeting used in making the cup.
I classed Fed 205Ms with CC-450s etc in my advice as they are far less prone to crater and pierce than CCI-200s, Rem 6.5s and especially the PMC (Wolf in the USA) standard model that is widely regarded as the 'worst' model on sale in this regard.
The Winchester SR was quite resistant to cratering / piercing some years back in plated 'silver' form and was recommended by Glen Zediker for Hi-Power Service Rifle AR15s. I used them for years in a manual .223R AR-15 happily. According to Zediker and others, Winchester has changed its specs since and the more recent unplated (brass colour) batches are much softer and should be avoided. I can't comment as I haven't seen any such in the UK.
Monte - are you coming over with the US F/TR team for the Creedmoor Europe v USA F-Class matches in Ireland followed by the Scotland v USA F/TR matches at Blair Atholl on 1st to 4th July? If so, we'll meet at Blair and I'll also get the opportunity to see how my Savage .223R performs at 1,100yd with 90gn VLDs. (It performed very well indeed on this range at 1,000 in a GB national league round last August.)
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
[quote author=Laurie]
Monte - are you coming over with the US F/TR team for the Creedmoor Europe v USA F-Class matches in Ireland followed by the Scotland v USA F/TR matches at Blair Atholl on 1st to 4th July? If so, we'll meet at Blair and I'll also get the opportunity to see how my Savage .223R performs at 1,100yd with 90gn VLDs. (It performed very well indeed on this range at 1,000 in a GB national league round last August.)
[/quote]
Yes, and yes. Since I spent most of last year slacking off and shooting sling-n-irons, and then worked on my Masters in Procrastination this winter... I'm currently working on sorting and fire-forming new brass, final load tune, etc. for the event, since I have to ship stuff off by the end of March. If this barrel hangs on shooting the way it has been, it might be interesting. If not... well, at least there is lots of good beer over there if I recall...
Back to the salt mines...
Monte - are you coming over with the US F/TR team for the Creedmoor Europe v USA F-Class matches in Ireland followed by the Scotland v USA F/TR matches at Blair Atholl on 1st to 4th July? If so, we'll meet at Blair and I'll also get the opportunity to see how my Savage .223R performs at 1,100yd with 90gn VLDs. (It performed very well indeed on this range at 1,000 in a GB national league round last August.)
[/quote]
Yes, and yes. Since I spent most of last year slacking off and shooting sling-n-irons, and then worked on my Masters in Procrastination this winter... I'm currently working on sorting and fire-forming new brass, final load tune, etc. for the event, since I have to ship stuff off by the end of March. If this barrel hangs on shooting the way it has been, it might be interesting. If not... well, at least there is lots of good beer over there if I recall...
Back to the salt mines...
Great, I look forward to meeting you. The end of June / beginning of July can be lovely in the Scottish Highlands (or dire!), but with four poor summers in a row behind us, the laws of probability say 2011 must be better - fingers crossed. At that time of the year, there are only about two hours of complete darkness out of the 24 in that part of the world if the skies are clear - definitely the best time to visit.
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