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Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

I have zero dog in this fight, as I don't use tuners, but if they work, they work. I have been around long enough to know that if a BR or other discipline guy has one on his rifle, it ain't just there for show. That's what Lapua stickers are for.....

That being said, my questions are: Why is he doing this? What can he gain? Why did he not utilize a better testing regimen? Isn't science about being open-minded? Does this lead to questions/concerns about his bullet designs and/or ballistics theory? Did those also receive the same "strict" testing regimen?

It does sound like he wanted it to fail, for whatever reason. If I was designing/selling bullets, I would want anything available to make them perform better.

Just curious, I know that it sure does leave a bad taste....
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I wish he woulda used folks that actually use tuners to do the testing
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It seems he and his team approach things from a PRS / High power / F-class point of view.

From a scientific point of view, there is no repeatability in letting the tuning process vary for each gun. I think Brian would rather have inconclusive results by a scientific approach than to follow what shooters really do but stray away from scientific method. He may now be working on ways to bring these two together, but I’m happy he tried and published the scientific brute force approach first because it would have been the cleanest proof.
 
All what he was saying, if you tune (setting the tuner) based on few shots, it means nothing.
It is like searching for a golden nugget in a mountain of dirt. The first couple shiny specs do not mean you hit the mother load of gold.
 
I have had the following deer rifles:

2-270 BAR's with the browning boss
1-30/06 with the browning boss
2-7 Mags with the browning boss

All guns were tuned to shoot 3/8" and smaller groups with a specific brand and lot# of factory ammo, without fail!

Later on, I used the rubber doughnuts sold by Limbsaver, moving the rubber doughnut 1/2" at a time to tune beater deer rifles like Savage pump 30/30, mossburg bolt guns, etc...

Fast forward to BR and Top end varmint rifles, they tune to go into the zero's and 1's...simply amazing. Many informal Benchrest shooters are happy with groups in the low 2's, and I would urge them to get a tuner from Gunsandgunsmithing and watch their groups suck down to barely opening up a bullet hole...not EVEN close to rocket science.

Thank you Mike(Guns and Gunsmithing) for teaching me a heck of a lot on the Physic's of how tuners actually work.
 
A good question, can you take a $400 rifle from Cabelas with 22" sporter barrel, A box off the shelves and pick up a tuner of your choice and tune to shoot 0.5 MOA?
 
.5 moa and less. There are some issues with bedding and pressure point in the stock. Did you read my post above on the Browning BAR's with the Boss systems? Should tell you enough to get you started.

Factory rifles with factory ammo, if you tune with a specific weight bullet and brand/lot# of factory ammo, you need to stick with it on the Tune. When you change bullet weights, you will have to re tune in particular.
 
I was the number one outspoken opponent of tuners in short range BR. I said I’d put one on my rifle when someone who has never beaten me before gets a tuner and beats me. Well, Hal Drake did that in the IBS Score National. I got a Beggs tuner and beat him and everyone else in Wadworth, Ohio the following year and then the following year I followed that up by beating everyone else at Webster City, Iowa at the IBS Nationals there. Tuners work only after you learn to use one. Not after 1000 shots in four rifles. That’s only 250 shots per rifle. To me, that’s not enough shots. I found my niche in .30BR and in score shooting. As with any rifle in any caliber in any discipline in short range BR, you go in and out of tune with every variation in density altitude and that changes all day. Therefore, I change my tuner setting for every target all day. I should say, I fire a couple tuning shots and change accordingly or not for every target all day. I’ve found if you think one setting will work all day you may as well put it back on the trailer.
 
Beiruty said:
All what he was saying, if you tune (setting the tuner) based on few shots, it means nothing.
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But many experienced tuner users already knew that, the same applies to all load development work, one swallow doesnt make a summer as they say.

There are those who call it good on the appearance of the first small group then there are those of us who call it good after rigorous repeatability testing and basing it on 5 shot group aggregates.

If that is the angle he is coming from then I dont think he made it very clear. If he is then I fully agree that one small groups means nothing. I see lots of guys for example on Youtube singing the praises of the EC Tuner the minute a small group appears without any repeatability testing, that of course is wrong and shows exactly what they know which sadly isnt much.

Something that is clearly lacking from tuner makers is detailed instructions as to how to bring a barrel into tune and ensure it repeats within a reasonable window.
 
Beiruty said:
All what he was saying, if you tune (setting the tuner) based on few shots, it means nothing.
It is like searching for a golden nugget in a mountain of dirt. The first couple shiny specs do not mean you hit the mother load of gold.
Click to expand...
He ran a flawed test and got flawed results is what he was saying. I don't know if book sales are down or he just wanted the attention he's now getting from his flawed test but I expected more from him.
 
lawman29 said:
Disagree with his conclusions... okay. Implying that he would be dishonest about the science to benefit financially... not okay. For those of you that "liked" that post, it says more about you than Mr Litz.
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People like him don't write books, Conduct podcasts and have youtube channels just to be good guy's and help people along with their shooting because He's a nice guy! He is doing all of it for money!

I think he has a lot to offer, But I think he is wrong about tuners, He should have involved shooters who use them and could have learned a lot about them, He went into it blind and really didn't know what he was doing.
 
gme said:
here's an interesting (some might say narcoleptic) study on a barrel tuned mass damper (they call it a vibration absorber) works on a different principal than the tuner as we know it, their data shows a dramatic improvement in barrel oscillation (and accuracy) under rapid fire with the Bushmaster M242 chain gun
https://www.researchgate.net/public...arrel_Vibration_Absorber_to_Increase_Accuracy
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That's the fun thing about Chain Gun... one squirt and you get your group size answer...
 
gme said:
here's an interesting (some might say narcoleptic) study on a barrel tuned mass damper (they call it a vibration absorber) works on a different principal than the tuner as we know it, their data shows a dramatic improvement in barrel oscillation (and accuracy) under rapid fire with the Bushmaster M242 chain gun
https://www.researchgate.net/public...arrel_Vibration_Absorber_to_Increase_Accuracy
Click to expand...
Gary, a tuned mass dampener was the exact thing that got my wheels turning in regard the the design that I use. Look at my site.
 
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